Souragne project

[Joël of the FoS]

And this is why 3e didn't discuss size. It's as big as you want it to be. You want to have a scale, add it yourself and you're right.

Two points, I'm of the opinion size doesn't matter and lands should be as big as they're needed and as small as they're wished to be.
Adding scale that would directly contradic published material is iffy and it is better to just leave it vague and let people decide for themselves if they want two miles wide or twenty.

My opinion too - whatever is canon, the scale can always be modified by the DM. Let's stick with canon on this one and let the DM modify it as he/she wishes.

We could propose a "suggested" scale close to canon as per Azalin's guideline, but let it to the DM.

alhoon, if you really want to have something bigger, you can send us a text for the Gaz explaining the benefits for Souragne of making it bigger; somewhat like an option for DMs.

Joël

[Maximillian]

There's also no need for slavery to be described along lines of colour. I know little about Asia, but the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians and Persians made slaves of their own people. It was the usual case of triumphs of war for recent slaves and an ancient, sad inheritance for the rest. I think what's important isn't the colour or nationality of the slaves, but the oppression which holds them in place. We also already have a nation- Falkovnia- which details the horror of slavery along the lines of race.

I do agree with that. We could portray the horror of slavery without the black/white racist discrimination... The case with Falkovnia isn't exactly the same, since those races don't really exist. No one could accuse the developers of romanticising racism against the elven or dwarven community. But think what might have happened if Falkovnia kept for instance only "african", or "asian", or "native american" -like slaves...

One would argue though that if we do that, we will actually deviate from the flavour of Souragne which was intended to resemble the american South in past times...

[Pamela]

One would argue though that if we do that, we will actually deviate from the flavour of Souragne which was intended to resemble the american South in past times...

New Orleans however is very atypical of the American South, at least in my mind. You also just cannot have voudoun- THE most prominent characteristic of Souragne- and not give a nod to Haiti in the development of this realm. Consider also the common use of French in the domain's titles and names- NOT something I relate to the American South.

[ScS of the Fraternity]

Great points, all around.

Ravenloft trully is the greatest setting - where the land itself is supposed to be maleable.

And yes, slavery doesn't necessarily have to be racially based. The word slave itself comes from the word Slav, from the Slavic people who were brutallized and subjugated by people nearly indistinquisable from themselves.
However, the heart and soul of voodoo and other aspects of Carribean/New Orleons culture is in the history of racism. Voodoo itself was the birth child of ancient tribal spiritualism and the Christianity forced upon slaves.

TwiceBorn, I like your idea of a collonist invasion as the basis for Souragne. History backs you up in that such is the sad fate of indiginous people trapped in a closed environement with conquerers.
Besides, I much perfer the idea of the upper class of Souragne having a more christian-like religion. It just doesn't jive that the rich WASPy Souragnian overlords have the same religion as their oppressed masses.

To Llana, I agree that it would be neat to pursue the Hatian angle more. There is a lot one could do with the real life voodoo reign of Papa Doc, and hsi son Baby Doc. Surely one can see parallels between Anton Misori and the hougan warlord Papa Doc.
But, the hatian theme runs into one big snag. Hati carries the connotations of a monotonous hell hole of abject poverty. No contrast, no conflict, no flavour.
Its kind of like Har'Akir that way - everyone is equally oppressed except for one or two big bosses under the Darklord.

Playing to a Deep South theme opens up huge contrasts and therefore huge conflicts.

[Joël of the FoS]

For the FoS Mansion, we got our inspiration from New Orleans. For the swamps, it yells "Louisiana", but the way the poor population is described, we hear "haiti".

IMHO, we have to get a little bit of both in Souragne inspiration, but mostly it should be new ideas, as Souragne isn't a caricatural Haiti or New Orleans We have GE for that!

Joël

[eocine]

Actually there was a faint reference to colour based racial typing in the Falknovia entry. If I remember correctly it said that those from the Indian, Asian and African equivalent realms had an increased OR rating...

As for Sourange, it should really be an amalgam of New Orleans and Hati, I'm sure that people can come up with something compelling.

[Jasper]

I think the easyest way to keep the racisum/slavery feel is to have a slave revolt some time in Sourange's recent past and have the current timeframe be in a early segragation era.
After grand battle of the Voodun Loas riding thier priests into battle against the priests of the mainland gods. The Loa were somewhat victorious but the resulting damage however was emence. Whole plantations were burned to the ground and the swamp ran red with the blood of both noble and slave. The plantatation owners agreed to free any slave that had worked for over seven years could go free but once freed they could only take the clothes on thier backs with them.
The newly freed slaves are not much better off then before. Being 'lesser' people they are unable to to own land or get any respectable jobs. Many were forced to take on roles as indentured servents- a slave by another name. Those who were able to find honest work must face the predgiduce of the the nobles as many buildings and temples in the town now forbid thier entry, calling them unlcean and "tainted by the swamp".


I thinking of bringing in a KKK style anti-native group operated by a vengefull priest out to rid the swamp of all the Loas even if it means killing every last native. It might be a little too much though as it might hit too close to home for some people.

[Pamela]

The word "Caribbean" was like a small epiphany when I read your post, ScS. THAT's the feel I have about New Orleans, and Souragne. You are right that Haiti is seen, unfortunately, as hopeless. But perhaps it can be generalised into the best and the worst of the Caribbean as a whole.

Another reason I'm hoping for a heavy Caribbean influence is because Souragne, is an island domain, whether it seem geographically to look like it belongs to a bigger lost land or not. In the real world, the Caribbean is an area of the world stuck between two continents yet not fully part of either. I've just begun reading Domains of Dread, and Anton Misroi is suggested to be strong enough to be part of the Core IF he'd chosen (for all I know, this may have changed). Yet he didn't. That insular feeling is an important part of any of the islands in Ravenloft. There's a tension in not being part of the Core, where all the attention if not power seems to be focused. Is Souragne a nation trying (despite its indigenous population) to imitate the Core, struggling to build up relations there? Or does it pride itself on its differences, and turn instead to other islands? In fact, are there any attempts at some loose confederation among the islands in face of the united power of the Core? Or is that fear completely alien to them?

As a native of l'Ile de Montreal, I know about that insular pride...

[alhoon]

Adding scale that would directly contradic published material is iffy and it is better to just leave it vague and let people decide for themselves if they want two miles wide or twenty.

My opinion too - whatever is canon, the scale can always be modified by the DM. Let's stick with canon on this one and let the DM modify it as he/she wishes.

RESOLVED: No land measurements.

So there will not be a scale at all or it would be a scale proposed to the DMs close to 1" = 25 miles? The second option adds another question: how large will the picture of Sournage be?

alhoon, if you really want to have something bigger, you can send us a text for the Gaz explaining the benefits for Souragne of making it bigger; somewhat like an option for DMs.
Joël

OK. When can we start sending?

[Joël of the FoS]

So there will not be a scale at all or it would be a scale proposed to the DMs close to 1" = 25 miles? The second option adds another question: how large will the picture of Sournage be?

The map megaproblem hasn't been solved yet. No se for ze moment !

OK. When can we start sending?

You can start sending stuff from now on, until the deadline in December

[ScS of the Fraternity]

Another reason I'm hoping for a heavy Caribbean influence is because Souragne, is an island domain, whether it seem geographically to look like it belongs to a bigger lost land or not. In the real world, the Caribbean is an area of the world stuck between two continents yet not fully part of either. I've just begun reading Domains of Dread, and Anton Misroi is suggested to be strong enough to be part of the Core IF he'd chosen (for all I know, this may have changed). Yet he didn't.

Good points,
To add to your note about the Conjunction, as I recall the books stated that Souragne was being pulled into the Core or some other luster, by the force at work in the Conjunction. Thanks to the powers granted by the Maiden of the Swamp, Misori had the control over Souragne necessary to resist the force.

In any case, I think we can be pretty sure that we won't be introducing a slave war. Far, far, far too many setting begin with the same old idea that a war just recently ended.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

After grand battle of the Voodun Loas riding thier priests into battle against the priests of the mainland gods. The Loa were somewhat victorious but the resulting damage however was emence. Whole plantations were burned to the ground and the swamp ran red with the blood of both noble and slave.

I don't actually think we need an elaborate internal war to break with the racial-line slavery system. Why not simply state that after Souragne was Mist-napped from the Material Plane, the ruling ethnic group who'd owned slaves simply weren't numerous enough to maintain their previous control over the enslaved majority? Unable to contact outside support from the armies of their former nation, in the event of a slave revolt, they opted to head off their own inevitable massacre before their slaves caught on that their masters were vulnerable: they extended full rights to some of the slave population -- i.e. the overseer-types -- in exchange for help in keeping the rest of the slaves in line. This included the right for those of the overseer-class to own land -- and slaves -- of their own.

That was when Souragne first became a domain. In the years that have passed since then, more and more descendents of slaves have moved into the upper levels of society -- where they become just as abusive as their ancestors' masters were, more often than not -- and the definition of who's eligible to be a slave has been abandoned, allowing people of either ancestry, as well as those with mixed blood, to turn up at all levels of the economic and political structure. There's still slavery, with all the abuses and corruption which that institution entails, but neither ethnic group can be deemed innocent.

[TwiceBorn]

I must say, this thread has generated some really interesting discussions!

If we're looking at correlations between modern issues to realms, then let Souragne be similar to the Haiti of the Duvalier regime, or any other postcolonial regime. What the PCs and readers come in to find are the ravages of a former government which is no longer present physically, but has left lines of division due to groups/families/sects they favoured over others. A messy topic, sure, but do you want PC's to be immediately able to spot the problems, and/or easy to resolve? Or do you want to cultivate an appreciation for how complex life can be, both fictional and real, and how marked the present is by the ravages of history?

I couldn't agree with you more, Llana. I'm all in favour of complexity, moral dilemmas, and shades of grey.

As for Sourange, it should really be an amalgam of New Orleans and Hati, I'm sure that people can come up with something compelling.

I agree with that as well.

TwiceBorn, I like your idea of a collonist invasion as the basis for Souragne. History backs you up in that such is the sad fate of indiginous people trapped in a closed environement with conquerers.
Besides, I much perfer the idea of the upper class of Souragne having a more christian-like religion. It just doesn't jive that the rich WASPy Souragnian overlords have the same religion as their oppressed masses.

Thanks, ScS. I also agree with your view on religion in Souragne.

There's a tension in not being part of the Core, where all the attention if not power seems to be focused. Is Souragne a nation trying (despite its indigenous population) to imitate the Core, struggling to build up relations there? Or does it pride itself on its differences, and turn instead to other islands? In fact, are there any attempts at some loose confederation among the islands in face of the united power of the Core? Or is that fear completely alien to them?

I draw a distinction between what I think WAS Souragne's original indigenous population, and those who currently inhabit the island (which include the descendants of colonizers and imported slaves). The RPHB indicates that "The native nobility, for their part, strive to encourage trade with other domains. They hope to expand their influence into other realms and watch Port d'Elhour emerge as a vital harbor in the Land of Mists" (p. 193). The reference to "other domains" is a bit vague... I could see Souragne wanting to build relations with the Core (larger population base to trade with), but might also seek to become a naval power and trading hub among the islands. IMC, there is a Souragnien ghetto in Nevuchar Springs (Souragniens who sought a "better life" in the Core)... but the ghetto residents now deny their Souragnien heritage (often due to the Darkonian memory loss effect). Some of those who have stayed in Souragne prefer to remain big fish in a small pond... and others simply do not have the means to leave Souragne. Bottom line: part of the populace could be proud of their Souragnien identity, while others might be ashamed of it.

I don't actually think we need an elaborate internal war to break with the racial-line slavery system. Why not simply state that after Souragne was Mist-napped from the Material Plane, the ruling ethnic group who'd owned slaves simply weren't numerous enough to maintain their previous control over the enslaved majority? Unable to contact outside support from the armies of their former nation, in the event of a slave revolt, they opted to head off their own inevitable massacre before their slaves caught on that their masters were vulnerable: they extended full rights to some of the slave population -- i.e. the overseer-types -- in exchange for help in keeping the rest of the slaves in line. This included the right for those of the overseer-class to own land -- and slaves -- of their own.

That was when Souragne first became a domain. In the years that have passed since then, more and more descendents of slaves have moved into the upper levels of society -- where they become just as abusive as their ancestors' masters were, more often than not -- and the definition of who's eligible to be a slave has been abandoned, allowing people of either ancestry, as well as those with mixed blood, to turn up at all levels of the economic and political structure. There's still slavery, with all the abuses and corruption which that institution entails, but neither ethnic group can be deemed innocent.

Great idea, Rotipher. In Haiti there existed historically a class of people known as the "affranchis." Many were born from encounters between the European colonizers and slaves. These affranchis became a class between the elites and the slaves, and had some property rights. (Yes, I admit that this is a gross oversimplification of Haitian history). I like the way you've managed to turn some of the oppressed into the latest generation of oppressors (hmmm... sounds like what Marx would describe as a dialectical relationship!), downplaying the significance of race/colour.

[Pamela]

I've enjoyed reading these posts immensely as well.

If there is a religion for the ruling class, is it going to be a new one? Or do we consider a Ravenloft one? The sect of the Lawgiver sure would seem to fit in with their own personal wishes.

I also like Rotipher's description of the present form of slavery/serfdom. I'm intrigued by the potential political schism you describe, Twiceborn, between those who want closer ties to the Core and those who don't. I could see a case where the metaplot (or rather, an aspect of it) behind the island/cluster gazetteers might be concerned with keeping these domains away from Core machinations. After all, a growing Core and tendency to clusters might be perceived as the Dark Powers' grip becoming stronger, as the world solidifies and gains a more definable shape. Perhaps they've somehow heard about Misroi's ability to keep Souragne away from the Core. A Darklord who was able to defy the Dark Powers' wishes, especially at such a time- that's the kind of info the Fraternity would surely love to study!

[ScS of the Fraternity]

Indeed, Anton Misori has a level of power over his home that has never before been atributed to a Darklord. Were the Fraternity to saddle themselves witha Darklord protector, Misori would make a good choice.

As for religion, personally I lean towards incorporating the Anchorites. I would perfer to try to spread 1 religion to use as the replacement for Christianity. Stilll, it would take a lot of wiggling to fit that particular church into pre=Ravenloft Souragnian history, but we shall see what we can do.