Ravenloft Horror Within - source book set for June 2026

[Speedwagon]

Majority of fans on this site, yes. But you'd be surprised at how many people came into the setting from 5e---not just Curse of Strahd but VRGTR. I know that on r/ravenloft and on the Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft Discord Server, just as many folks are excited and optimistic about this as are folks who are skeptical or would prefer a return to 3e. Same on ENWorld Forums & RPG.net. And I say this as someone who got into the setting thanks to CoS and VRGTR but likes to work within the 3e lore of 760 and onward, and loves the work that the Fraternity of Shadows has done to continue that timeline (and the work of other fans here with each Quoth the Raven to contribute to it).

Please, on no level take my response as a personal rebuke: You and I have interacted on Discord, too, I think. I'm certainly happy to have you here, mate.

That said, I would very, very, very much caution you against doing "internet nerd-o-metrics".

First, Reddit, Discord, and most message boards are like your local shots bar: They're busy places because college students exist. Snapshots from there tell you what people their age, and with a lot of disposable time and income tend to like.

Second, interaction and attention don't equal sympathy. Just take my case: The TSR MotRD map literally hangs over my desktop at home. Yet so, I probably have, what, under fifty posts at the Frat over the course of the last ten years.

Third, when it comes to D&D, sales can be deceiving: IIRC, retail sales for physical copies of Curse of Strahd, different editions and translations considered, should be between 300.000 and 600.000 copies worldwide, between 2016 and 2026. That's a sizeable-enough number, BUT: How many groups actually went on to play the adventure? How many of the people involved went on to buy other 5e RL products after, like VRGtR?

-- The "counter metrics" I'm applying are equally anecdotal, but probably a bit more reliable: At every gaming convention, on every roll-the-dice-here gaming website, in every gaming store, both 2e/3e RL and 2016's Curse are still in high demand. Games are full, threads are crowded, books are on special sales display even years after publication. Ravenloft-y games are in demand, too, namely mini-games like "Mork Borg", "Rangers of the Shadow Deep", et al. - Just not for post-2016 RL.

Now, that's obviously just me reporting from my bubble: What leads me to think this might have a relatively high degree of validity is that people from other places/countries have told me about the same: Very few seem to be particularly interested in RL '21. -- That doesn't say that RL '21 would be bad, or that people who play it would be "doing it rrrong", or whatever some rage-baiters try to insert into the conversation. It simply indicates that consumer demands appear to be shifting.

-- The new book/box seems to do just that: A shift of style and perspective. If it turns out to be well done, it will extend the shelf-life of "modern" Ravenloft for another decade. If it is for me, I positively don't know yet. If it is for you: More power to you.

Yeah, I see your point on not getting too embroiled in "internet nerd-o-metrics". But like you said, you're reporting from your bubble as much as I am from mine. I'm glad to hear that Ravenloft-y games are in demand, and I see evidence of that in the bestsellers on DriveThruRPG being things like "Mork Borg" or "Shadow of the Demon Lord" or "Shiver" or "Blades in the Dark". It fills me with confidence on the future of the niche of horror gaming.

Hopefully, the new book does well. And by the time of 6e or 7e or 8e, future content developing the Ravenloft landscape gets more focus and complexity. The book doing well is also why I'm so excited for potential DMsGuild support from various authors.

And thanks! More power to you, and I'm sure we have talked on the Discord before. I go by R.E.O. Speedwagon on there, if that helps you figure out when we've last chatted .

[Speedwagon]

Majority of fans on this site, yes. But you'd be surprised at how many people came into the setting from 5e---not just Curse of Strahd but VRGTR. I know that on r/ravenloft and on the Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft Discord Server, just as many folks are excited and optimistic about this as are folks who are skeptical or would prefer a return to 3e. Same on ENWorld Forums & RPG.net. And I say this as someone who got into the setting thanks to CoS and VRGTR but likes to work within the 3e lore of 760 and onward, and loves the work that the Fraternity of Shadows has done to continue that timeline (and the work of other fans here with each Quoth the Raven to contribute to it).

Please, on no level take my response as a personal rebuke: You and I have interacted on Discord, too, I think. I'm certainly happy to have you here, mate.

That said, I would very, very, very much caution you against doing "internet nerd-o-metrics".

First, Reddit, Discord, and most message boards are like your local shots bar: They're busy places because college students exist. Snapshots from there tell you what people their age, and with a lot of disposable time and income tend to like.

Second, interaction and attention don't equal sympathy. Just take my case: The TSR MotRD map literally hangs over my desktop at home. Yet so, I probably have, what, under fifty posts at the Frat over the course of the last ten years.

Third, when it comes to D&D, sales can be deceiving: IIRC, retail sales for physical copies of Curse of Strahd, different editions and translations considered, should be between 300.000 and 600.000 copies worldwide, between 2016 and 2026. That's a sizeable-enough number, BUT: How many groups actually went on to play the adventure? How many of the people involved went on to buy other 5e RL products after, like VRGtR?

-- The "counter metrics" I'm applying are equally anecdotal, but probably a bit more reliable: At every gaming convention, on every roll-the-dice-here gaming website, in every gaming store, both 2e/3e RL and 2016's Curse are still in high demand. Games are full, threads are crowded, books are on special sales display even years after publication. Ravenloft-y games are in demand, too, namely mini-games like "Mork Borg", "Rangers of the Shadow Deep", et al. - Just not for post-2016 RL.

Now, that's obviously just me reporting from my bubble: What leads me to think this might have a relatively high degree of validity is that people from other places/countries have told me about the same: Very few seem to be particularly interested in RL '21. -- That doesn't say that RL '21 would be bad, or that people who play it would be "doing it rrrong", or whatever some rage-baiters try to insert into the conversation. It simply indicates that consumer demands appear to be shifting.

-- The new book/box seems to do just that: A shift of style and perspective. If it turns out to be well done, it will extend the shelf-life of "modern" Ravenloft for another decade. If it is for me, I positively don't know yet. If it is for you: More power to you.

I think what a lot of older people don't get, is that teens and college students are basically the future. Someday we'll be running things. If we're into something that adults aren't into, it doesn't mean that thing is unimportant - it means it'll grow in importance overtime. (Obviously this doesn't apply to every trend, but I think 5e Ravenloft is a little more serious than 67.)

I also see and am sympathetic to this point. I'm a post-grad myself (just turned 26) but even when I was in college, RL'21 was pretty hot and gave an influx of fans into the fanbase (giving TheArcaneWeirdo an internet high-five for also coming in via VRGTR). I helped an underclassman of mine, who went to the games club I went to, with expanding on his RL game by telling him of older lore and directing him to the netbooks. I also played as Rudolph Van Richten as a guest-star and had a great time but that's beside the point---I just wanted to share that tidbit.

Like Le Noir Faineant says, I think the best way for the new book to prove itself is to see its longevity. But like TheArcaneWeirdo says, the longevity of the book is helped both by it being a relatively recent update to RL'21 (I seriously wasn't expecting another RL book until 6e or 2030) and the audience demographic for 5e & RL'21 skewing younger-ish (this is anecdotal and I know Le Noir Faineant already covered how shaky anecdotal evidence can be, as well as the inherent risk and/or futility of "internet nerd-o-metrics").

I'll read the new book and see what I like. Whatever I like, I'm going to gladly poach and use for my games, as I've done with all Ravenloft material---canon and fanon---in the past. Anything I don't like, I'll either challenge myself to make it work (with copious rewrites) or just discard. That's the appeal of TTPRG books to me--none of us are obligated to use everything that's ever printed. But I'll also hope that there's stuff in this book that the good folks of the Fraternity of Shadows website will like, even if they otherwise are more critical or less critical of the new material. We're all here to have fun and enjoy this setting. If anything, it gives me even more reason to look forward to this year's Quoth the Raven issue!

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

I tried to pre-order, but it turns out D&D Beyond only ships inside the US?
What is a poor Israeli werecat like me supposed to do?

Edit: It turns out they require your address evem if you only order digital products.
Am I supposed to lie?

[Mistmaster]

For Digital, no.

[Le Noir Faineant]

What Mistmaster said - DriveThruRPG/DMsGuild ship worldwide, and allow (almost) worldwide digital purchases via Master Card, Visa and PayPal. Obtaining at least a digital copy of the item should not be a problem for you.

Physical purchase and shipment should cost you around 100$ from the US or from Europe; there, vendor and product availability might vary. But that just means you got to Google it, not that you can't get it.

Just in case this was not transparent for our American friends - also due to the present tariff situation, transatlantic book et. al. shipments have about quadrupled in prices over the last year; or, at least US parcel services are charging those fees now. So, the "costly but not disproportionally expensive" gaming purchase now tends to go at "Playstation money" prices.
For our global hobby, that's really bad: Las time we had a situation like this was in the early 1990s, and D&D basically went away in Europe. Of course, now we have digital printing and PDFs these days - but I'm going to go out on a limb and say that there's a ceiling to what people want to spend for that kind of stuff, and there's a steep limit to people that are willing to go all digital at the gaming table. -- For older gamers like myself, this likely won't matter. For anyone who has really dedicated themselves to the newer material, however, this is really sad.

[alhoon]

-- I'm not writing that to challenge you: I'm saying, success is going to be your best revenge, here. Show me in 2030 how you've been running a whole series of Ravenloft (-flavored) games based on material that I dismissed. Go and do your thing. Like, it's not like I wasn't here twenty years ago, and argued pretty much the same points that you are debating now.

Ah, the edition wars back when 3e showed up... yeah, I remember those. We were young, optimistic and naive back then. Barely 1 or 2 lost powers checks. Ah, those were the days...
Now? Now we are... still young thanks to stolen vitality of young posters like Speedwagon and Arcaneweirdo some unrelated magic. You are totally safe from us. Now, would you like to try this nice headpiece? No need to cast detect magic, it is magical but it is minor benign magic (of the necromantic kind). Ignore the skull that laughs at you, it just has bad manners.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

-- I'm not writing that to challenge you: I'm saying, success is going to be your best revenge, here. Show me in 2030 how you've been running a whole series of Ravenloft (-flavored) games based on material that I dismissed. Go and do your thing. Like, it's not like I wasn't here twenty years ago, and argued pretty much the same points that you are debating now.

Ah, the edition wars back when 3e showed up... yeah, I remember those. We were young, optimistic and naive back then. Barely 1 or 2 lost powers checks. Ah, those were the days...
Now? Now we are... still young thanks to stolen vitality of young posters like Speedwagon and Arcaneweirdo some unrelated magic. You are totally safe from us. Now, would you like to try this nice headpiece? No need to cast detect magic, it is magical but it is minor benign magic (of the necromantic kind). Ignore the skull that laughs at you, it just has bad manners.

Hey!

[Le Noir Faineant]

Hehehe. So good to see that you're still around as well, Al. Thing is, though, the criticism of 5e RL is not centered on "Edition Wars"-style bashing:

3e had to select and to reduce among the abundance of material that came in from 2e; that selection in itself was a matter of relative dispute, IIRC. -- In retrospect, the 3e WW line is pretty strong, though. "The Books of S--", incomplete as they are, that got to be some of the most engaging "sourcebook framework fiction" in all of RPGs.

With 5e, it's different. Some of the stuff from RL '21 is just plain out bad craftsmanship; random pens-for-hire writing content they clearly have no connection with, and do not understand or care for. Instead, they make it their main concern and their main public grievance to reduce or and "correct" traditional Gothic elements in the one setting that uses "Gothic" to self-describe. And the result, predictably enough, more often than not reads like a group of punch-drunk PETA members napped at the late-night kebab store, to periodically wake up and rewrite "Mouseguard" or "Watership Down" on whatever napkins the store might still have left. ("No! That owl is an endangered species!")

-- Not trying to dunk on the resident youngsters, just saying, the reasons RL '21 got heat is fundamentally different than earlier editions got heat. In RPGs, "grognardism" is a real problem - but this is not about that. Again: Blue Rose, Crescent Moon, Zweihander, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Blades in the Dark, Cthulhu Dark Ages, Symbaroum, Old Gods of Appalachia, or the new Fifth Season - modern Fantasy Horror RPGs are out there, and they generally work, and are regarded as "uncontroversial".

Now, might well be that D&D gets the biggest heat because they make the biggest fire: Or might be that millions of voices suddenly crying out in terror, that might not be for nothing.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Hehehe. So good to see that you're still around as well, Al. Thing is, though, the criticism of 5e RL is not centered on "Edition Wars"-style bashing:

3e had to select and to reduce among the abundance of material that came in from 2e; that selection in itself was a matter of relative dispute, IIRC. -- In retrospect, the 3e WW line is pretty strong, though. "The Books of S--", incomplete as they are, that got to be some of the most engaging "sourcebook framework fiction" in all of RPGs.

With 5e, it's different. Some of the stuff from RL '21 is just plain out bad craftsmanship; random pens-for-hire writing content they clearly have no connection with, and do not understand or care for. Instead, they make it their main concern and their main public grievance to reduce or and "correct" traditional Gothic elements in the one setting that uses "Gothic" to self-describe. And the result, predictably enough, more often than not reads like a group of punch-drunk PETA members napped at the late-night kebab store, to periodically wake up and rewrite "Mouseguard" or "Watership Down" on whatever napkins the store might still have left. ("No! That owl is an endangered species!")

-- Not trying to dunk on the resident youngsters, just saying, the reasons RL '21 got heat is fundamentally different than earlier editions got heat. In RPGs, "grognardism" is a real problem - but this is not about that. Again: Blue Rose, Crescent Moon, Zweihander, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Blades in the Dark, Cthulhu Dark Ages, Symbaroum, Old Gods of Appalachia, or the new Fifth Season - modern Fantasy Horror RPGs are out there, and they generally work, and are regarded as "uncontroversial".

Now, might well be that D&D gets the biggest heat because they make the biggest fire: Or might be that millions of voices suddenly crying out in terror, that might not be for nothing.

What traditional gothic elements do you feel it was wrong to reduce?
Cause I felt like most changes were made to avoid self-reptition and make each domain unique, as well as to avoid offensive stereotypes, and did a pretty good job of both.
But I've read VRGtR before I dived into 2e/3e lore, and from my experience, people are always biased toward what they knew first.
Can you be more specific? Like, what concrete details bug you?

[alhoon]

About domains being unique... they were unique in 3E too. Even in the late 2e era, the "very similar" domains were united - which gave us Borca from Ivan's and Ivana's domains.

While I understand that this 5e is the "standard" Ravenloft for you and many that came through the success of Curse of Strahd...
The changes in many cases seemed arbitary.

First, I would say this:
- The 5e has more information on domains than the "campaign books" of previous eras.
But!
>> it is much more game-oriented in my opinion for a few sessions in the dark. It would take a lot of effort to go from the material presented for say Falkovnia to a campaign spanning levels 3-12 or something.
>> It is much less wide at least at first glance. Every domain's theme is IMO narrow. We had narrow domains in the previous Ravenloft, but fewer ones.
>> I miss the core and the clusters. EVERYTHING is an island of terror which for me seems a huge throw-back.

And the above have NOTHING to do with the "let's throw out 75% of the lore and make everything again, keeping a few names the same" approach.
I understand that for someone that didn't spend 20 years immersed in the lore that was thrown out, this is not a drawback. So, I just mention the >> things above.

What I miss (Aside of the lore I knew, the heroes and villains I knew, the "world rules" I knew):
- As I said, the core and clusters. They gave a much more robust approach.
- The "magic specifically for Ravenloft" rules. Much deeper in my opinion about what kind of spells didn't work and why. It was deeper, gave you better understanding of that world.
- The Campaign world specific rules that were much more robust and different than "the usual". You still get curses and Powers checks but they are much less rules-altering than the Powers checks and curse rules we had.
Even when I play 5e, I use a 5e-adapted version of the powers checks and curses.
- The monster templates and their weaknesses. Werecreatures for example had a host of new possible abilities you could give them and a host of new possible weaknesses.
Adding these to the 5e material would have been trivial! I am talking about 3-4 pages or something of "Pick one of those 5 powers" with 2-3 lines for each power and "Ghosts have allergens! They affect them as..." etc. Or "Fiends have now phylacteries and new powers that..." etc. And yet, they opted to not do it.


And the elephant in the room that applies to me and people that loved the previous lore:
he "let's throw out 75% of the lore and make everything again, keeping a few names the same" approach.

EDIT: That said, the madness rules of the Abyss supplement work wonders here. Madness is IMO better in 5e.

[doctornecrotic]

Hehehe. So good to see that you're still around as well, Al. Thing is, though, the criticism of 5e RL is not centered on "Edition Wars"-style bashing:

3e had to select and to reduce among the abundance of material that came in from 2e; that selection in itself was a matter of relative dispute, IIRC. -- In retrospect, the 3e WW line is pretty strong, though. "The Books of S--", incomplete as they are, that got to be some of the most engaging "sourcebook framework fiction" in all of RPGs.

With 5e, it's different. Some of the stuff from RL '21 is just plain out bad craftsmanship; random pens-for-hire writing content they clearly have no connection with, and do not understand or care for. Instead, they make it their main concern and their main public grievance to reduce or and "correct" traditional Gothic elements in the one setting that uses "Gothic" to self-describe. And the result, predictably enough, more often than not reads like a group of punch-drunk PETA members napped at the late-night kebab store, to periodically wake up and rewrite "Mouseguard" or "Watership Down" on whatever napkins the store might still have left. ("No! That owl is an endangered species!")

-- Not trying to dunk on the resident youngsters, just saying, the reasons RL '21 got heat is fundamentally different than earlier editions got heat. In RPGs, "grognardism" is a real problem - but this is not about that. Again: Blue Rose, Crescent Moon, Zweihander, Shadow of the Demon Lord, Blades in the Dark, Cthulhu Dark Ages, Symbaroum, Old Gods of Appalachia, or the new Fifth Season - modern Fantasy Horror RPGs are out there, and they generally work, and are regarded as "uncontroversial".

Now, might well be that D&D gets the biggest heat because they make the biggest fire: Or might be that millions of voices suddenly crying out in terror, that might not be for nothing.

You forgot Vaesen, which I'd argue is one of the best gothic RPGs on the market now lol
But really, I understand it well. I think it helps when both critic and viewer take on a lens that filters out their own biases for a second. The Remake book did carry a lot of problems. As a gaming book, horror themed supplement, and examination of a campaign setting, I could ramble on the various problems I noticed... and that's detaching the setting fan aspect from this. Looking as just a game critic and wider horror fan, I found the original publication to be very underwhelming in general. (But, it's objectively not horrible as some would like you to believe). I did give it a chance and did find quite a few concepts to be pretty interesting, deeply needing more development, but still interesting. Granted, I DO associate settings with the systems they natively launch in (which is AD&D for Ravenloft), so there's my bias. And beyond that, I like to jump outside of D&D (which again, is my bias)... SHOUT OUT TO VAESEN! (And Free League, my beloved)
Part of me wishes I still had energy to think much about this rules update of the remake book... but, I don't have the blood pressure to have that sort of stress that often.

[Le Noir Faineant]

What traditional gothic elements do you feel it was wrong to reduce?
Cause I felt like most changes were made to avoid self-reptition and make each domain unique, as well as to avoid offensive stereotypes, and did a pretty good job of both.
But I've read VRGtR before I dived into 2e/3e lore, and from my experience, people are always biased toward what they knew first.
Can you be more specific? Like, what concrete details bug you?

In good faith, maybe best take a look at some of the older threads from 2021 where I think I wrote my piece about it.
I have not read RL '21 since around the time it came out. My main memories are that it looked A LOT like Green Ronin's "Blue Rose" - and that the DM-to-Player parts (what the players actually get to see in-game) were a mess: Mainly, that all the more prominent Darklords were written to be presented as anti-heroes. That breaks the setting's premise, and that's not how Gothic fiction works.
-- Also, in true WotC fashion, some of the real-world ripple effects of the contextual changes were apparently not considered: Like, not to mess with Frat laws, but personally I do not think that I have found a more egregious example for "unintentional, stupid racism" than the reinvention of Harkon Lukas as a black minstrel with pretty rape-y undercurrents. Likewise, Falkovnia and Mordent looked like they were not playtested, and written on a whim. -- And that's just me talking from memory.

Now, we may well debate every single example to death: "That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal .." We know the drill, right? -- Or, we might come to agree with what seems to be the general, out-of-bubble consensus, anyway:
That the book, while nicely structured and lavishly produced, is pretty mediocre. Neither is it a particularly inspired remake, nor is it a particularly focused game aid. -- Again, [insert long list of similar games and settings], not much discussion about them. RL '21, generally not as well liked. Might be everyone else's problem. Or might be Ravenloft's problem.

You forgot Vaesen, which I'd argue is one of the best gothic RPGs on the market now lol

I like Vaesen a lot, but it doesn't fit in the above list, which is only Fantasy/Elseworlds Horror. - I have written this in another thread already, I think: Considering pricing and content, I would emphatically recommend Vaesen to noobs over any other game of the same style. Call of Cthulhu is sure great, but it's very hit-and-miss: Speaking from experience, the setting and the setup are done with great care - but most of especially the bigger adventures are pretty much unplayable as written. Vaesen, or its third-party spinoff, Sleepy Hollow, are much simpler, and easier-to-prepare games.

(And Free League, my beloved)

This is where a certain style of play will always lead you, it seems: I run TOR at the moment, and will run Symbaroum in autumn.

[Icecubez]

Who do I talk to about the mistipedia, I tried uploading a picture of the book cover and it keeps telling me no.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Who do I talk to about the mistipedia, I tried uploading a picture of the book cover and it keeps telling me no.

That would be me. Send me a pm and I'll take a look

[doctornecrotic]

This is where a certain style of play will always lead you, it seems: I run TOR at the moment, and will run Symbaroum in autumn.

Ya know? This is the second time I've seen TOR mentioned on a primarily D&D forum, the first being The Piazza (which does have TOR themed section).

Who do I talk to about the mistipedia, I tried uploading a picture of the book cover and it keeps telling me no.

Hmm, the Wiki is informing you of an ill omen, surely!