Episode III SPOILERS

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Yes, Luke killed several guards on the Sail Barge, but none were "unarmed" or defenseless. That's what's not the Jedi way. Fight, ok, kill if you have to during the fight. But if you capture someone, bring them in to stand trial. It's like the geneva convention. not so far fetched, as an ideal. (As for practicality of following it, that's a debate for another time.)

As for the "never use the force for attack" rule, it was blown away way back in ROTJ. Yoda says, in order to be a full jedi, Luke must confront and defeat vader. Or earlier. Didn't Obiwan tell Luke to "use the force" in his "attack" on the death star? You can spin that line practically any way you like. It it an "attack" everytime you fight someone? (don't you use the force to improve your reflexes in battle?) Is it an attack only if you use the force directly on their person? Is it an attack only if you strike first? Does it not apply to other force weilders? who knows?

(If I recall correctly, Yoda didn't push palpatine directly, he reflected his lightning back at him, no? Or was Yoda "defending" the republic for that whole fight and thus immune to the restriction??? If we have to split hairs like that, the original line doesn't have much direct meaning to begin with. I think it just means that the Jedi have to be as noble as possible in the excercise of their powers and not use the force as an excuse to subjugate others, like Palpatine did.)

[alhoon]

Which is what Vader does to Luke at Cloud City. It is an attack.

Vader isn't trying to kill Luke at Cloud City. He isn't using the Dark Side IMO in this attack

Also, that little "force punch" he uses to send Palpatine ass over teakettle at the very beginning of the fight is most certainly a "force attack.

It's a typical example of how Lucas has taken his own continuity and flushed it down the crapper.

Whooops! That is true!

[Cole Deschain]

gonzoron- Oh, stop defending it. Why you should you care more for Lucas' creation than he does?

He just got a chance to let the Jedi do some "kewl stuff" onscreen, and he took it. I was appalled at the very start of Phantom Menace when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon force-punched their way through the battle droids.

While Yoda never fought any foes in the OT, Obi-Wan did, and he never used the Force as a kinetic attack. Think about his handling of the situation in the bar (which brings me to an entirely different gripe which I won;t go into unless someboday asks)- He tries mental manipulation. After that? Out comes the lightsaber. Obviously,the use of force is sanctioned, but the use of the Force in a direct attack? That's something Vader and Palpatine did.

Until the PT began

[Charney]

I think we might be too geeky about all of this. As Cole said, Lucas himself doesn't seem to care.

Still, I'm a geek so here's my take. You use the force to defend, so pushing away a dozen battle droids coming at you qualifies at the very least. Choking someone doesn't. For the rest, it could depend upon why you are doing that. It's all a matter of point of view in the end

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

gonzoron- Oh, stop defending it. Why you should you care more for Lucas' creation than he does?

Heh... It's what I do. See also Ravenloft.

Seriously, I don't think he doesn't care. I think he's made some big mistakes, and he's more interested in telling a fun and exciting story than he is in continuity. But I do think he cares for his creation.

I was appalled at the very start of Phantom Menace when Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon force-punched their way through the battle droids.

You were appalled and thousands of fanboys (self included) were overjoyed. To see Jedi in their prime using the force.

Think about his handling of the situation in the bar (which brings me to an entirely different gripe which I won;t go into unless someboday asks)- He tries mental manipulation. After that? Out comes the lightsaber.

Which of course is admirable. To cut off a guys arm with a laser blade. Just don't use the force. Note that his mental manipulation was just "let me buy you a drink" and not even the Mind Trick that he used not half and hour earlier. A little use of the force could've saved poor Walrusman's arm.

Obviously,the use of force is sanctioned, but the use of the Force in a direct attack? That's something Vader and Palpatine did.

And Luke. Did he really need to force-choke the Gamorrean Guard at Jabba's Palace?

In the end, what I'm getting at is this: As great of a creation as Yoda was, (and I love Yoda with a borderline obsessive fervor) he was Lucas's spin on the "Wise old sensei" cliche, and he said a lot of stuff in the OT that sounds nice and profound but isn't always true. (How did Luke going to Bespin destory all that his friends fought and suffered for again?)

Given the choice between a slavish following of everything Yoda said in the OT, which would result in the Jedi looking awfully boring, and bending his words a bit to make the PT more exciting by showing us Jedi using the force in cool and exciting ways, I'm happy with what Lucas chose.

[Dr Bloodworth]

My two cents -

IMO, Yoda told Luke that a Jedi doesn't use the Force to attack in an effort to keep him from going down the same path as dear ol' dad. Kinda the same intent as Obi-Wan telling him that Vader murdered Anakin.

[Cole Deschain]

Seriously, I don't think he doesn't care. I think he's made some big mistakes, and he's more interested in telling a fun and exciting story than he is in continuity. But I do think he cares for his creation.

Matter of opinion. My own isn't fit to post here.

You were appalled and thousands of fanboys (self included) were overjoyed. To see Jedi in their prime using the force.

Using it to a vioolent end against sentient (if not technically living) beings. Seems like a big fat violation to me.

Which of course is admirable. To cut off a guys arm with a laser blade. Just don't use the force. Note that his mental manipulation was just "let me buy you a drink" and not even the Mind Trick that he used not half and hour earlier. A little use of the force could've saved poor Walrusman's arm.

The poor walrusman who had just pulled a gun on him. He got off light- Obi-Wan obviously could have killed him.

And Luke. Did he really need to force-choke the Gamorrean Guard at Jabba's Palace?

No. I don't hold Luke as being a terribly good Jedi, actually. He pulls off some nasty Dark Side mojo in RotJ. His status as a "lightside Jedi" does not solidify (for me) until he refuses to kill Darth Vader.

In the end, what I'm getting at is this: As great of a creation as Yoda was, (and I love Yoda with a borderline obsessive fervor) he was Lucas's spin on the "Wise old sensei" cliche, and he said a lot of stuff in the OT that sounds nice and profound but isn't always true. (How did Luke going to Bespin destory all that his friends fought and suffered for again?)

That is entirely different from explaining the way a Jedi is to behave. What Yoda was saying was that Luke was not yet in a position to trust his premonitions. And consider how it ended up- he saved no one. Lando and Leia had to bail his worthless, one-handed keister out of the trouble he'd landed himself in. Therefore, Yoda was right in one key area- Luke should not have gone.

Given the choice between a slavish following of everything Yoda said in the OT, which would result in the Jedi looking awfully boring, and bending his words a bit to make the PT more exciting by showing us Jedi using the force in cool and exciting ways, I'm happy with what Lucas chose.

"Kewl stuff" is exactly what is wrong with movies these days. The Jedi would have been far from boring if they hadn;t been throwing little TK punches around. If they'd deflected the energy bolts with their hands (or pulled a Vader and simply absorbed them, a trick I do not see as inherently evil or aggressive), I would have been more impressed. If they'd used force-assisted acrobatics to close the distance to their foes without getting hit, it would have been awesome.

But no. We get a stale retread of a technique that is plainly a violation of the original intent.

[Reginald de Curry]

Saw it last week.

Pros:
Very Faustian; Anakin deals with the devil, and he gets burned. The Jedi (finally!) realize that the "prophecy" was meant as a warning (He's supposed to bring balance to the Force? While the light side is ascendent? Uh-oh.). The final fight between Obi-Wan and Vader actually looks like two guys trying to kill each other, instead of a modern dance exhibition.

Cons:
Corny? Yes, but this is not new to the series. The entire series is corny at times; the Anakin & Padme "love" scenes in #2, the Han & Leia "love" scenes in #4, every odd-numbered episode has someone yelling "Noooooooooo!!!" If stormtroopers have the sense to camouflage their armor when the environment demands, then why do they always wear shiny white armor on Endor? The whole Leia's mother's memory thing is a little annoying, though I'm not gonna throw a fit about it. And if you're gonna make Qui-Gon a ghost, could you at least show him on-screen? It's not like Lucas can't afford the cost of a bribe--I mean a fee! Yes, a fee, that's it.

[Charney]

About the bad love dialogues in #2 and 3, I don't get why cause in #5-6, it was actually a good love dialogue between Leia and Han. Is it because Harrison Ford knew how to make it sound good or because it wasn't Lucas writting it back then?

[JinnTolser]

Maybe over the past 20 years, George Lucas was killed and replaced by a Gamorrean, who just happens to be really good at disguising himself.

Although, Lucas didn't do the dialogue in Revenge of the Sith all by himself. He hired some playwright (can't think of the name right now) to help with the dialogue because even he realized that the dialogue in Ep. II sucked. So, while I think the dialogue in Revenge is a significant improvement over Attack of the Clowns, if you disagree then Lucas doesn't deserve ALL the blame.