THis just... I just... good lord...

[norms29]

So this other board I frequent has this fad right now of doing indepth reviews of Old game books. Amdd someone just did this review of the Black Box

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=54167& ... sc&start=0

we've gotten into a bit of a thing, regarding the subject of Powers Checks. basicly, he has this to say

[quote=frank]You're also fundamentally reading the chart backwards. The Dark Powers percentage check isn't defined by the victim, it's defined by the perpetrator. Player Characters and Innocents get a 1% powers check for every lie they tell, regardless of the alignment of the people they are lying to.
[/quote]

he's the one who has it backwards, right?
tell me I'm not crazy here.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

You're not crazy. He has it backwards. I'm AFB right now, so I can't quote chapter and verse, but I'm 100% sure I'm (and hence, you're) right. (If I'm lying to you, may I incur a 1% powers check.)

[alhoon]

I would agree with him.
Torturing an evil guy is as evil as torturing a good guy, whatever moral curtains you put on it. It also draws the attention of the dark powers that revel in people slowly getting corrupt and abandoning the hard path of virtue "for the greater good".

However: Someone that killed his neighbor in order to sell his heart to the evil cleric, so the evil cleric would heal his dying daughter, isn't (at least IMO) going to draw the attention of the DP because he lied to his daughter about how she was healed.
He's already (IMO) too far gone for this to matter.

[Zilfer]

^So it's just as evil to execute a criminal for their crimes than to execute a 'good/innocent' man?

Just trying to make sure I get the logic right here or did I just read that out of context?

[norms29]

I would agree with him.
Torturing an evil guy is as evil as torturing a good guy, whatever moral curtains you put on it. It also draws the attention of the dark powers that revel in people slowly getting corrupt and abandoning the hard path of virtue "for the greater good".

hang on, are you saying that that's how powers checks should work? or how they do work as written?

Also, it's worth mentioning that in the Black Box chapter on powers checks, which is the book under review here; they actually use the exact words "for the greater good" as an example of a legitimate excuse to not make a Powers check. seriously, along with "the heat of the moment" I have no idea what they were thinking when they wrote that.

[High Priest Mikhal]

I would agree with him.
Torturing an evil guy is as evil as torturing a good guy, whatever moral curtains you put on it. It also draws the attention of the dark powers that revel in people slowly getting corrupt and abandoning the hard path of virtue "for the greater good".

hang on, are you saying that that's how powers checks should work? or how they do work as written?

Also, it's worth mentioning that in the Black Box chapter on powers checks, which is the book under review here; they actually use the exact words "for the greater good" as an example of a legitimate excuse to not make a Powers check. seriously, along with "the heat of the moment" I have no idea what they were thinking when they wrote that.

I think alhoon is saying that's how it should work. But DoD and the 3.x books all say it's "less evil" to torture an evil person; now matter how you slice it it's still evil (paladins will always lose their abilities, a powers check is always required), though. There's also the type of torture to consider: Routine or Sadistic. Routine is detached and measured (think Inquisition tortures to elicit confessions) while Sadistic is where the torturer is emotionally involved and deriving pleasure from inflicting the pain.

[HuManBing]

"Huh, this is an interesting thread! I think I'll wait till I come back home to my desktop and then comment."

{SEVERAL HOURS LATER}

"Okay, time to open up the thread and ... O_o ... submit ... O_o ... my ... O_O ... comments..."

*blinks rapidly*

O_o

–_–

O_o

"Um... ಠ_ಠ ... I'm just going to leave now... very quietly..."

[Zilfer]

Dont you hate that!^

[HuManBing]

Just to be clear, I'm not disrespecting anybody in this thread. I'm merely admitting that I'm waaaaay out of my depth... And that I'll be watching this thread closely to see what nimbler minds conclude

[alhoon]

^So it's just as evil to execute a criminal for their crimes than to execute a 'good/innocent' man?

Just trying to make sure I get the logic right here or did I just read that out of context?

Debatable. But I think it's just as evil to torture someone for info whether they're good or bad.
And that's debatable too, but not in my campaigns.
One of the reasons I have angels show up from time to time in campaigns is to remind people what's good and what's evil in my campaign. In Ravenloft, that's nearly out of the window though because of the unspoken path. People have to rely on their own moral compass.

hang on, are you saying that that's how powers checks should work? or how they do work as written?

Neither.
I say how PC work in MY campaign.

Just to be clear, I'm not disrespecting anybody in this thread. I'm merely admitting that I'm waaaaay out of my depth... And that I'll be watching this thread closely to see what nimbler minds conclude

I don't think anyone can tell you what's good and what's evil in your campaign. Or Whether the DPowers care of what's evil or what's proper in your campaign.
We can offer opinions and suggestions though.

[HuManBing]

I don't think anyone can tell you what's good and what's evil in your campaign. Or Whether the DPowers care of what's evil or what's proper in your campaign.
We can offer opinions and suggestions though.

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head, with this post. Admirably concise.

[Zilfer]

Jammed shut with one swing!

Most things in DnD are debatable. XD

[High Priest Mikhal]

This debate over what's "more evil" brings up a question I've always had regarding Premeditated Murder. A party is planning to kill someone who is irredeemably evil. Under the RAW they still have to make a powers check despite the fact this person/creature is responsible for a great deal of woe and suffering. I waive the powers check because there's a serious spectrum of gray that differentiates "murder" and "just punishment" in my campaigns. But how about the rest of the board? How do you all handle that? What exactly is "murder" per se under the precept of intent?

[Zilfer]

This debate over what's "more evil" brings up a question I've always had regarding Premeditated Murder. A party is planning to kill someone who is irredeemably evil. Under the RAW they still have to make a powers check despite the fact this person/creature is responsible for a great deal of woe and suffering. I waive the powers check because there's a serious spectrum of gray that differentiates "murder" and "just punishment" in my campaigns. But how about the rest of the board? How do you all handle that? What exactly is "murder" per se under the precept of intent?

The way I'd handle it and your free to handle it differently when do we call something murder?

Generally I see murder as 'outside' the law. So if you killed the 'evil person' on your own terms or killed them in their mannor it's... murder.

But if you are an agent of the law going to an outlaw base and you are forced to kill them then I'd waive or not consider it murder.

I'm sure there's some logical way to worm around this simple idea but Morals always have those "exception" rules which change per person.

Meanwhile wanting to kill said evil person and going through the law to have them punished with whatever the law considers just punishment.

Then you get the whole, well what if the law is evil? Well, I'd cover that if it comes up in game. xD Can't cover all my bases.

[HuManBing]

For what it's worth, real life legal systems rarely punish criminal intent; they only punish criminal acts. One of the main logistical concerns is the difficulty of proving what went on in a person's mind. In free societies there is also the philosophical outlook that a citizen deserves to enjoy freedom of thought, no matter how objectionable, inside the privacy of their own mind. (So I'm free to think about rape, murder, and jaywalking as long as I don't actually try it out for real.)

In your campaign, however, the Dark Powers may be omniscient and may be able to infallibly determine this information...