Player Knowledge

[MoonCalf]

Hi, I've DMed Ravenloft a few times, but always with players who didn't really know anything about the setting. I was wondering how other DMs deal with players who are quite familiar with the setting. It seems like the setting would lose a lot if the players knew things like who Darklords were or what their weaknesses were. I think that the game would be much better in certain respects if I had players who more interested in the game, though.
It seems like it could be alright if the players didn't know too much and didn't metagame.

How do other people manage this?

[steveflam]

If you are a good roleplayer you can separate player knowledge from your own knowledge

[ewancummins]

Hi, I've DMed Ravenloft a few times, but always with players who didn't really know anything about the setting. I was wondering how other DMs deal with players who are quite familiar with the setting. It seems like the setting would lose a lot if the players knew things like who Darklords were or what their weaknesses were. I think that the game would be much better in certain respects if I had players who more interested in the game, though.
It seems like it could be alright if the players didn't know too much and didn't metagame.

How do other people manage this?

I change enough things, mostly behind the scenes, that metagaming is not such a good idea. Thinking that one knows something, which later turns out to be false, can be a nasty surprise for a metagamer.

I also don't make frequent, overt use of published darklords. The darklords are cool villains, and in many ways are the heart of the setting- but they need not come out in all stories. They can exist in the background, mysterious figures whose influence is felt rather than seen. This approach works better with some darklords than with others, of course.

Make your own villains. Modify the darklords, domain histories, geography, etc to suit your needs and your tastes. Make whole new domains and darklords as you please. Above all- do not be a slave to "canon." The only canon that really matters is what's true IYC.

[Diesirae]

i deal with players like this all of the time.
It gets grating when you hear "oh so we're doing this? but what about this thing how does that come into effect?! I need to know this so i can make total use of it for myself." Not verbatim but thats what it sounds like to me.

typically i change things behind the scenes as well. I add things that make more sense, and turn the tables on them when they pull things like this on me.

Example:
Player: What?! how did she get all that stuff or those levels?! it wasnt in his stat block?!
Me: Neither was being open about her vampirism or her affinity to let people know what her weakness are. Also you'd be surprised when they mispell ancient as fledgling.

[Strahdsbuddy]

I actually have both experiences in my old gaming group. Two of us switched DM duties, with two separate campaigns, so obviously, we both knew a lot about the setting. The other regulars may have read I, Strahd, but weren't encyclopedias of the setting like the two of us were. This seemed to work out just fine with everyone uncovering mysteries and being surprised in different ways. In fact, NPCs that didn't show up in a book somewhere were of particular interest to the other DM and I, because we really DIDN'T know anything about them and it was fun to see where these new characters would take us.

Geography metagaming is fine with me, it saves time, especially when the PC has a reason to know his way around. The worldly merchant has a role to play while the skull-thumper who had never left his town has his role too.

[ewancummins]

Geography metagaming is fine with me, it saves time, especially when the PC has a reason to know his way around. The worldly merchant has a role to play while the skull-thumper who had never left his town has his role too.

Well, it's not really metagaming if the PC is supposed to know the information used.

[ewancummins]

typically i change things behind the scenes as well. I add things that make more sense, and turn the tables on them when they pull things like this on me.

Example:
Player: What?! how did she get all that stuff or those levels?! it wasnt in his stat block?!
Me: Neither was being open about her vampirism or her affinity to let people know what her weakness are. Also you'd be surprised when they mispell ancient as fledgling.

Muwhahahahaha! That's the spirit!

[Diesirae]

Muwhahahahaha! That's the spirit!

Glad u approve.

This also works out for power gamers. Even they can fear lowly were-wolf when its properly powergamed back at them.

[ewancummins]

Another good way to handle things is avoid the use of game mechanic speak and Monster Manual nomenclature at the table. Use narrative descriptions and alternate names, and your monsters will be much more mysterious and spooky.

What is it? OMG, I don't know its stats! Help! Run away, run away!

[Diesirae]

I do that SOOO OFTEN. Or misdirection is fabulous!
my favorite is the following:
Enter the darkened chapel
Oh its a coffin..ok folks lets prep us for some vampire fight goodness.
magically silvered weapons Stakes holy water and sunlight based spells ready? ok.
Vampire with red pits for eyes jumps out...Dark hollow voice calls for the PC's doom.
Ya ya ya..Die vampire!!
wall of ice blocks off exit..
Uhh thats a dumb spell casting vampire..DIE Vampire Mage!
Vampire Mage strikes with his two handed sword
umm ok DIE Vampire mage Fighter!
Die!-says the vampire mage fighter
um no? wait how did the mage just die?! POWER WORD KILL?! ok thats it it was sunlight outside blow open the window!
Is teh vampire a crispy critter? NO?! What the hell?
1 -20 hit die fireball later..the the party is now a cadre of skeletal warriors for a Death Knight

[alhoon]

I change enough things, mostly behind the scenes, that metagaming is not such a good idea. Thinking that one knows something, which later turns out to be false, can be a nasty surprise for a metagamer.

I also don't make frequent, overt use of published darklords. The darklords are cool villains, and in many ways are the heart of the setting- but they need not come out in all stories. They can exist in the background, mysterious figures whose influence is felt rather than seen. This approach works better with some darklords than with others, of course.

Make your own villains. Modify the darklords, domain histories, geography, etc to suit your needs and your tastes. Make whole new domains and darklords as you please. Above all- do not be a slave to "canon." The only canon that really matters is what's true IYC.

I would agree with Ewan's suggestion. Personally, I don't modify darklords much but I also don't use them much. I've changed some things not so that the players won't know but because it fits my style better.
For example I've changed Azalin to 20th lvl with a curse that he can't bring back Irik as an evil person, not that he can't learn new magic. He has some problem learning new magic but not paralyzed.

For other darklords or highly influential villains, I haven't really decided how they are in my campaign. For example, I'm not sure how I would want GC or Malocchio, abilities, motives and all. So I just have Malocchio killed off in most of my campaigns.

[Diesirae]

For example I've changed Azalin to 20th lvl with a curse that he can't bring back Irik as an evil person, not that he can't learn new magic. He has some problem learning new magic but not paralyzed.

For other darklords or highly influential villains, I haven't really decided how they are in my campaign. For example, I'm not sure how I would want GC or Malocchio, abilities, motives and all. So I just have Malocchio killed off in most of my campaigns.

INtresting. My players with their in depth knowledge always want to utilize Malocchio to their own ends..Drives me nuts...i think ill start murdering...i mean gently pushing him out of the picture too
As for Azalin..i did that once...scared one of my players when he used on of the player's homebrew spells back on him after a previous encounter.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I have a complete mix of knowledgeable and "virgin" players in my group, and while the knowledgeable ones are good at keeping their characters in the dark, it can be challenging, but also sometimes fun. An anecdote cut'n'pasted from my campaign journal:

[Background: I ran Feast of Goblyns from within Scaena, with the PC's thinking they'd been sent back in time, when actually they were on Juste's illusiory stage. Unfortunately, several characters made the practical decision to leave the adventure and try to change their own tragic pasts. Since I knew it wasn't a real time-travel situation, I had to corral them and get them back on track. One of characters, Samuel (played by a slightly RL-savvy Player) who had a grudge against Azalin in his backstory, got waylayed by Madame Eva who told him: ]
"the Wizard King Azalin Rex is present here, looking to pick up a 'trinket' that's going to be 'unearthed' soon." "Samuel turns around and heads back to town." ...

"DM Commentary:Of course, even if this were all real, Azalin was safely at home in Darkon at the time. He was "present" only in the form of his loyal Kargat. .... Since he worked so hard to bring the Conjunction to pass, I think it fitting to include his agents any time one of the four Grand Conjunction modules that don't feature Azalin is run."

... "But Samuel shows up, ..., and takes Kerri (a PC played by a Ravenloft virgin) off to the side to discuss something. In private, he tells her that the reason they've been brought back in time is to find and kill Azalin Rex, a powerful wizard."

"DM Commentary: Not exactly what Madame Eva said, Samuel! tsk, tsk! "

"Kerri goes back to the inn to ask where one might find magicians or illusionists but the innkeeper warns her not to hang out with that sort. Because they speak in Vaasi, which the rest of the group doesn't know, the group also doesn't know yet that she's looking for King Azalin Rex."

"DM Commentary: This was a very amusing moment. Normally I think it best that players don't know much more than their characters do. Of course good players can keep their knowledge separate, but generally the unknown is scarier. In this case, I found the opposite to be true! Kerri's player had never heard the name of Azalin before. All she knows is that he's a wizard, so she feels free to ask around about him, mostly unconcerned. Meanwhile, Duffy's player read the Black Box 2nd Edition Ravenloft Campaign Setting long ago, and even ran some adventures using it, so he nearly choked on his soda when hearing the name come out of her mouth! Thus, the player who knew more about him was way more scared than any of the characters were."

[Diesirae]

Yes sir gonz, thats always fun using their knowledge to terrify them.
Did that once with a virgin party and 1 experienced player in a non RL game but still.
me:And then Nightwalker steps in.
mage: The what?
Me: Nightwalker.
Mage: Seriously?
Me :Umm yes.
mage: I run. Not only do i run, but i trip the gnome and drop my magic sword. Screaming in terror.
Me: Um ok. So anyways as the rest of the group watches the mage running at full tilt, the Rogue named Nightwalker greats everyone.
Gnome player: hey guys! i got a new sword!

[alhoon]

Why would a mage have a magic sword?