Drakov and seige engines

[Manofevil]

We all know Drakov's take on gunpowder and magic, but what about seige engines like catapults and trebuchets? Would he use those?

[HuManBing]

I don't see why not.

There are reasons to distrust magic. Hell, most of the people in Ravenloft already do. Drakov may distrust magic out of a belief that it's unreliable and uncontrollable (vide Azalin's and Strahd's own curses for examples of this) and results in terrible consequences.

Gunpowder is similarly a very unstable new technology, and Drakov can't be faulted for being cautious about it.

But siege engines have been in use for centuries before the medieval period. Drakov would definitely have seen them in use on Taladas, where strongholds required such siege engines to crack open.

[ewancummins]

I don't see why not.

There are reasons to distrust magic. Hell, most of the people in Ravenloft already do. Drakov may distrust magic out of a belief that it's unreliable and uncontrollable (vide Azalin's and Strahd's own curses for examples of this) and results in terrible consequences.

Gunpowder is similarly a very unstable new technology, and Drakov can't be faulted for being cautious about it.

But siege engines have been in use for centuries before the medieval period. Drakov would definitely have seen them in use on Taladas, where strongholds required such siege engines to crack open.

If Dementlieu or Larmordia have technology similiar to most of Europe in the 17th or 18th centuries( and canon sources repteadly describe these domains in such terms) then we're talking muskets and cannon. Flintlocks, too- not just matchlocks and wheel locks. We aren't talking about late medieval hand-gonnes or something really basic like the pot-de-fer.


Why would Falkovnians reject cannon and flintlock muskets? Isn't it a bit goofy for a Core domain that borders a couple of the most technologically advanced states in the world to have such a Luddite stance?

Drakov is a goofball. He most certainly can be faulted for not adopting superior arms and tactics for his armies, IMO.

There is one way you could rationalize his bizarre anti GP agenda, as well as the odd tech level variations across the core;

If gunpowder is a mundane substance then the tech should have spread further by now.

If gunpowder in Ravenloft is really magical 'smokepowder', then restricting the stuff as per canon makes more sense. Drakov doesn't like/trust magic,; he won't like magical powder.

If your version of Lamordia uses the regional anti-magic field, you may have a problem with magical smokepowder. Perhaps anti-magic fields do not affect smokepowder, just as certain other magical things are not affected (force cage).

[HuManBing]

I agree with your post 100% ewancummins. The way Drakov has been written up so far doesn't hold much internal logic or consistency. Worse still for a Darklord, he's not even particularly sympathetic for anybody who's not already a tyrant themselves.

It's one of the main reasons why I worked on fleshing out his backstory.



One other issue about gunpowder weapons: the materials are fairly easy to collect, but refining it for greater efficiency and effectiveness is dangerous work. Given that city fires are already highly deadly in pre-industrial settings, you'd have to really really need the added benefit in effectiveness to go sorting through potash, sulphur, and charcoal in ever-more-volatile ratios. You also can't get effective cannon and muskets unless you marry the gunpowder industry with a smelting industry.

Finally, if you have enough of a population count that the old tried-and-tested methods of waging war already work pretty well anyway, then much of the impetus for gunpowder adoption is lost.

The Chinese first discovered gunpowder, but their ample natural resources, relative lack of competition, and their ability to field vastly larger armies than anybody else nearby meant they had little incentive to perfect the musket. In contrast, the European states were cramped and contentious and every last bit of competitive advantage was crucial. By the 1600s, the Chinese were basing their musket designs on those brought over from the west, rather than vice versa.

Drakov is sitting on the Core's largest crop yield, which history would dictate gives rise to a geometrically large, well-fed populace. At this point in time, gunpowder tech only allows single-shot musket lines. If your enemy has enough horses, archers, or infantrymen, your musket lines must be backed up with melee soldiers because they will break through. If all you've got are hastily-reloading musketeers, you're going to be swept off the field.

The musket line is great for defense or pitched battles, where you can arrange your men in rows to cycle through volleys. It's not so great for assaults, where you expect your men to reload ball, charge with powder, and fire - all while advancing. Rain will also dampen gunpowder and turn the best musket into nothing more than an expensive bayonet spear.

Drakov's supposed to be a strategic and tactical genius (albeit in much the same way as Azalin's supposed to be a spellcasting genius, i.e. everybody says they are but none of the canon writers could adequately demonstrate this in the setting or game modules - which means it's the DMs who have to come up with this stuff on their own). This sort of tactical consideration would likely be very familiar to him.



One final thought about why he might not like gunpowder. It has nothing to do with military tactics but to do with fear of assassination. Remember Guy Fawkes and his plan to blow up Parliament: before gunpowder, toppling a fortress would take weeks of bombardment with siege engines. Once you've got gunpowder, all it takes to remove a despot is a cellar full of barrels...

[ewancummins]

Of course, rain can also screw up bow strings, make the ground too soft for heavy cavalry, etc. Heavy rain won't necessarily help Drakov as much as you might think. It could hamper him too.



I'm assuming that Dementlieuse military muskets would be flintlocks fitted with socket bayonets.
Not only that, but the musketeers are going to be backed up by cavalry and artillery. The cavalry will have guns too: pistols or maybe musketoons. Light cavalry will wear little armor, but be mounted on swift horses. Mounted scouts with spyglasses can spot Falkovnian troop movements at a safe distance, and then trot off to report to HQ.
The heavy cavalry will wear steel cuirasses- or maybe even full suits of plate. (After all, they don't need to worry about those non-existent Falkovnian musketeers blasting them, so full armor that can stop arrows may well be worth the investment for a corps of elite mounted pistoleers).
They may also use dragoons or mounted infantry.
Field pieces loaded with grape shot will shred Falkovnian infantry and cavalry alike.
I would even go so far as to say that forts have been built at key points along the Falkovnian border of Dementlieu. If not, the at least someone in Demenlieu is lobbying for such fortresses to be built. Vauban, baby!


Drakov might be sharp, but he's a few centuries behind his southern neighbors.
This is adequate explanation for his inability to overcome Dementlieu- even without Dominic interfering, IMO.

I like your point about assassination. It's irrational- but the dude is crazy. Maybe you should include a 'gunpowder plot' against Drakov in your novel? Something early in his reign, to make him paranoid about 'magic powder used by assassins.'

[Manofevil]

A lot of the reasons you guys have raised were the reasons the Zulu beat the british regulars in Africa in very famous battle in the 19th Century. There were other contributing factors but those turned it into a massacre rather than a victory.

[ewancummins]

A lot of the reasons you guys have raised were the reasons the Zulu beat the british regulars in Africa in very famous battle in the 19th Century. There were other contributing factors but those turned it into a massacre rather than a victory.

Sure, the Zulus won one famous battle- a Pyrrhic victory that cost a huge number of Zulu lives and was never to be repeated. Look at what happened to them after that!
The Brits stomped the Zulu impis into the dirt, smashed their kingdom, and subjugated the people.

Technology and tactics do matter, and military science may advance just as any other field of knowledge. The gap between Drakov's armies and some of his opponents is much smaller than what existed between the Zulus and the British, of course, but it is still significant. It tends to offset the advantages Falkovnia has in food production and a large population, IMO.

It's almost as if Drakov's curse is to be unable to learn new military tactics, tools, strategies, etc- mirroring Azalin's curse of being unable to learn new spells.

[HuManBing]

Brainstorming here... brainstorming...

Technology and tactics do matter, and military science may advance just as any other field of knowledge. The gap between Drakov's armies and some of his opponents is much smaller than what existed between the Zulus and the British, of course, but it is still significant. It tends to offset the advantages Falkovnia has in food production and a large population, IMO.

Well, the Zulus were also living in terrain ill-suited for cultivation of crops and raising a significant population. It's one thing to subdue a relatively small population of confederated hunter-gatherers and subsistence farmers with a campaign of decisive victories. (Vide immigrants vs. natives in the North American campaigns of the British and French.) As China has proven again and again throughout history, it's quite another thing to subjugate a massive population geometrically inflated through centuries of better cropland and centralized authority. In pre-Industrial history, it's been "conquered" twice by non-Han ethnicities - the Jin (Mongols) and the Qing (Manchus) and in each case, the invading culture largely assimilated with the Han majority within two generations.

In the post-Industrial world, China's centralized authority was aloof and impotent, as was the case during the last imperial Qing dynasty, and generally this is seen as the beginning of the end - a period after which China could no longer just "absorb" invaders and convert them to Chinese cultural practices. Even then, the British, French, Germans, Americans, Russians, and Japanese still limited their colonial ambitions to coastal towns and cities - knowing full well that they simply lacked the manpower to subjugate the interior never mind their rifles and cannon. A century later, the Japanese came with mortars, tanks, aircraft carriers, battleships, and machine guns - and they still restricted themselves to the coastal towns and cities. (When they finally made their late campaign inland, their lines of communication extended beyond easy defense and the campaign bogged down as losses outnumbered replacements.) This was during a period of time when the Chinese Nationalist Army under Chiang Kai-shek was still fielding large numbers of conscripts armed with swords and knives.

Falkovnia may or may not be like this. Either way, having gunpowder gives your side a significant advantage... but as you point out, it does not automatically ensure victory. Whether the difference is close enough for Falkovnia to overcome through numbers, training, and tactical flexibility is something you'll have to decide for yourself.

Gunpowder weapons of this era still share much of the same parameters as archery. Reloading is slow, and aiming is still unreliable enough that you're best off prevailing through mass of numbers rather than individual skill. You're better off firing and reloading cyclically, so you need a relatively unharassed, calm place on the battlefield to do this, and advancing while doing this is difficult (and this doesn't disappear until the invention of rounds where the primer and bullet are encased in the same mass - I don't have my book with me but I'm not sure any nation in Ravenloft has this yet - it seems more like a Gothic Earth tech level to me).

These elements mean a gunpowder force may prevail in a given defense of a set battle: say, a pitched battle on a field, or a castle. Against immobile targets like forts, they can bring a very concentrated amount of firepower to bear at safe ranges outside of arrow and crossbow fire. But they're less useful on the offense, especially if the defender is on familiar territory and decides to refuse direct engagement - because of the reloading issue. Once you've spent your shot, you're so vulnerable reloading that you need another row to cover for you, and rows are impractical when advancing through enemy territory other than plains or grassland.

If Falkovnia is facing an invading force of gunpowder units, the first few stinging defeats will teach them a few important lessons: a) massed cavalry charges are useless - save your cavalry for evasive attacks, feints, ambushes, and flanks. b) retreat whenever the enemy has time to prep a musket line or cannon line, c) destroy their lines of supply to deprive them of their powder and shot as early as you can, d) sabotage their powder stores - this can be as quiet as perforating the sheets keeping them dry, or as loud as a torch in the battery, e) massed-fire formations (archery or muskets) are highly dependent on key leaders in a way that every-man-for-himself melee combat may not be - assassinate or poison or bribe away the main leaders and the effect on enemy effectiveness will be profound.

These are only a few I can think of. Chinese military thought has Sun Zi's "Art of War" and Zhuge Liang's "36 Stratagems" for further reading if you're interested. Note that these are millennia older than gunpowder and are still being studied by corporate and military executives today - partially because they examine indirect ways of wearing down an enemy beyond face-to-face combat.

It's almost as if Drakov's curse is to be unable to learn new military tactics, tools, strategies, etc- mirroring Azalin's curse of being unable to learn new spells.

Of course, in any campaign where Drakov is hidebound and irrational, then pretty much everything I've written above is irrelevant. Sadly, this interpretation seems actually faintly feasible, given his bogeyman portrayal in canon materials. If you're more interested in a nuanced Drakov then his refusal to adopt gunpowder does not have to equate to battlefield inflexibility. Perhaps he has witnessed one too many torches in powder kegs, or a firing line ruined by rain, to feel safe with this new technology. In all other respects, he's a functionally savvy, intelligent military thinker.

Maybe you should include a 'gunpowder plot' against Drakov in your novel? Something early in his reign, to make him paranoid about 'magic powder used by assassins.'

The story has been stillborn for a while now, but I had considered something similar to this. Instead of an assassination, I was thinking of writing in a bit into his story where his own side sabotages an enemy cannon emplacement. The resulting explosion not only destroys the cannon but also collapses an entire wall of the enemy citadel, giving Drakov an easy victory... and a lifelong distrust of cannon. I've had to write in similar episodes explaining his distrust of demihumans and battlefield prejudice against women, too. These are convictions he holds strongly that deny him many useful advantages, but they're convictions that anybody who's been through what he's been through could understandably come out holding.

It's irrational- but the dude is crazy.

In my campaign (and as the novel is trying to demonstrate) Drakov is actually not so much crazy as war-shocked. Much of his attitude towards rulership derives from his childhood in a warzone, and he genuinely rules as best as he knows how. The tragedy of his situation is that he's a very effective leader in times of crisis, but he has never understood peacetime morality and so from a peaceful civilian viewpoint, he's a bloodthirsty firebrand. The only type of leadership he knows is crisis leadership, and therefore his inclination is toward continuing the crisis so he can be of use to his country. Historically, this draws from many realworld leaders, not least Mao Zedong ("The Revolution must continue at all costs!").

Under this interpretation, Drakov might actually do fairly well with fending off a gunpowder invasion. He's the typical "father to his soldiers" style of leader to military types, and his primary trait in battle has been his flexibility and creative thinking - in my novel he got his start leading an elite but small band of outriders in flanking missions and supply raids. While his depredations as leader may not endear him to the populace, his control over propaganda may allow him to paint the invaders as The Greater Of The Evils. Superstitions about magic will also feed into public antipathy over the use of gunpowder weapons - especially if the invaders destroy a fort or citadel on the way. Drakov has informants, he has a massive (if outdated) army, and he has a very strong home turf advantage in terms of food and supplies. The enemy may have some "flags and flowers" welcome from the liberated Falkovnians, if they're really savvy with their counter propaganda, but they will be fighting a very distant battle. And whatever you say about gunpowder's virtues, one serious drawback exists - you'll never be able to loot any stores of it in Falkovnia. If you're in for the long run, you're going to be bringing it all with you. Make sure your supply lines are secure... if you can. Drakov has some very good riders.

Finally, take my entire post with a big huge "Your mileage may vary" caveat as well. Depending on your campaign style, these historical and "grit-based" issues may not work well with a fantasy gothic flavor. And if you prefer Drakov as a straightforward bogeyman, it certainly is far simpler to make him a military millstone that hampers his lieutenants' attempts to wage war competently. Again, history has an example for us: the British decided against assassinating Adolf Hitler, because his inept micromanagement of the German campaign against Russia was already doing the Allies a huge favor.

[brilliantlight]

I tend to have Drakov has masses of soldiers explain why his domain hasn't been overrun myself. His neighbors are used to defending their domains using their various dark lord powers and are of the mindframe that "large armies are a waste of money because successful invasion is almost impossible." so none of them have huge armies and their troops are more police than soldiers.

[High Priest Mikhal]

I tend to have Drakov has masses of soldiers explain why his domain hasn't been overrun myself. His neighbors are used to defending their domains using their various dark lord powers and are of the mindframe that "large armies are a waste of money because successful invasion is almost impossible." so none of them have huge armies and their troops are more police than soldiers.

If you mean the darklords are the ones used to such defenses, then I agree. The general populace is only vaguely aware of what closed domain borders are, often through the lens of folklore and secondhand accounts at best. If the darklord has some vested interest in keeping foes out, then such a defense is common. Of course, the only domain that borders Falkovnia that doesn't have a darklord terribly interested in the land per se is Lamordia, but it has its harsh, unforgiving terrain and weather to protect it.

Back on the OP of why Drakov doesn't use siege engines, it could be argued he does--or did, at first. But with each successive failure he's probably put more effort into research and development of new siege devices that could withstand whatever it was that cost him victory. Bizarre magical or mechanical--or both at once--things he hopes will punch a hole in the defenses (closed domain borders) of his target and allow his soldiers to get in. But since no mortal power can override a closed domain border (let's hope Drakov never learns of Evil or Good outsiders!) even those are doomed to failure should he ever get them up and running.

[Kessler]

My explanation for Drakov not using gunpowder is that warfare with gunpowder is completely different from medieval style warfare. To change from one style to another requires whole different mindset, strategy, tactic, equipment etc.

So for Drakov it is simply VERY big step to take and get adopted to warfare with immensely different style. He is simply not able to jump from one century to another, it took lots of generations on Earth... (on the other hand - Japanese got hold on it pretty quickly).

It's something like if medieval guy is transported to our time, he probably couldn't get used to our technologies and mindset.

So, anyway, Drakov using siege weapons is completely okay. However - medieval siege weapons are quite useless against gunpowder time defenses (low and fat walls).

Actually, in my campaign he is very adept tactician and commander - as long as he stays with bows and swords (after all, he was chief of very efficient mercenary group). He also tries to adopt into "new" world: the Ministry of Science is trying to invent all kinds of bizarre war machines that almost never work.

[ewancummins]

My explanation for Drakov not using gunpowder is that warfare with gunpowder is completely different from medieval style warfare. To change from one style to another requires whole different mindset, strategy, tactic, equipment etc.

So for Drakov it is simply VERY big step to take and get adopted to warfare with immensely different style. He is simply not able to jump from one century to another, it took lots of generations on Earth... (on the other hand - Japanese got hold on it pretty quickly).

It's something like if medieval guy is transported to our time, he probably couldn't get used to our technologies and mindset.

So, anyway, Drakov using siege weapons is completely okay. However - medieval siege weapons are quite useless against gunpowder time defenses (low and fat walls).

Actually, in my campaign he is very adept tactician and commander - as long as he stays with bows and swords (after all, he was chief of very efficient mercenary group). He also tries to adopt into "new" world: the Ministry of Science is trying to invent all kinds of bizarre war machines that almost never work.

I am not sure , now that I think about it, that Vauban style fotresses are all that common in Ravenloft's advanced lands. They may have the diagrams in some old books- but are wars frequent enough to justify building many forts?

Brilliantlight raises a good point about certain domains. If the Darklord is also the ruler and he has a way to close the borders, maybe large, well-trained forces and well-defended, up to date fortresses are less common/important.
In canon materials, have Drakov's invasions of his neighbors failed because their armies defeated his or because the Darklords defeated him with supernatural powers? Both?

[HuManBing]

Against Azalin, Drakov's troops slaughtered the Darkonian soldiers and it was specifically the hordes of undead that drove him back out. It's Azalin's darklord power at work, but because undead do also roam independently of any darklord manifestation, it might not be immediately obvious that a darklord is doing this. Certainly Darkon's populace does not think of Azalin as an undead darklord, and Azalin is actually said to take great pains to hide his lich status. (If you adopt my personal canon that Drakov does know that Azalin is a lich, then things become very interesting - Drakov's desperate wars against Darkon might even seem a little tragic, as the doomed attempts to unseat an unspeakable evil, rather than the vainglorious campaigns of an irrational militant.)

Against Borca, Drakov's men were all poisoned via Boritsi's darklord power. However, because poison also is fairly subtle and ubiquitous outside of darklord powers, Drakov could be forgiven for not realizing a supernatural power was at work.

I do recall Drakov invading a gunpowder domain, which owes nothing to darklord powers.

[brilliantlight]

Against Azalin, Drakov's troops slaughtered the Darkonian soldiers and it was specifically the hordes of undead that drove him back out. It's Azalin's darklord power at work, but because undead do also roam independently of any darklord manifestation, it might not be immediately obvious that a darklord is doing this. Certainly Darkon's populace does not think of Azalin as an undead darklord, and Azalin is actually said to take great pains to hide his lich status. (If you adopt my personal canon that Drakov does know that Azalin is a lich, then things become very interesting - Drakov's desperate wars against Darkon might even seem a little tragic, as the doomed attempts to unseat an unspeakable evil, rather than the vainglorious campaigns of an irrational militant.)

Against Borca, Drakov's men were all poisoned via Boritsi's darklord power. However, because poison also is fairly subtle and ubiquitous outside of darklord powers, Drakov could be forgiven for not realizing a supernatural power was at work.

I do recall Drakov invading a gunpowder domain, which owes nothing to darklord powers.

The neighbors Drakov invaded are Darkon(Undead), Lamordia(Adam summoned a vicious winter storm), Dementieu (Dominic mind controlled Drakov's officers), Richemulot (Jacqueline summoned hordes of rats), and Borca (poison). Evey one of which defeated partly by dark lord powers.

[Manofevil]

This is probably another thread but has Falkovnia ever been invaded by one of its neighbors?