Astonomy in the core

[Manofevil]

Are the peoples of the core looking up? We know what they see, that's in the books, but we don't know what they think. Have they reached the level of Galileo or Copernicus yet? have they built large (not giant) telescopes and pointed them skyward yet? Do universities have scolars on the payrole who do nothing but use such tools and record their observations? What do you guys think?

[HuManBing]

That's really tricky. Early astronomy is pretty much the process of deducing the relationship between significant nearby bodies in space - but that relies on a model where you're a planet in orbit around a star.

Ravenloft always struck me as being a thought exercise more akin to a planar prison. Four corners of a flat world, shrouded in mist, with occasional islands of existence moving around. Conceptually, I just don't think of Ravenloft as a planet orbiting a star in space obeying the Keplerian laws of rotational physics.

This also brings into question things like Sithicus and the fact that it has three moons, whereas Barovia apparently only has one.

[DocBeard]

This also brings into question things like Sithicus and the fact that it has three moons, whereas Barovia apparently only has one.

Couldn't you just say that has to do with air quality? The heavy mists that come off the Balinoks make stargazing difficult most of the time, while you can see three spheres in the gentler climate of Sithicus, and up to five in the dry, rocky climate of Nova Vaasa. Sort of like how its easier to see Mars and Venus in certain parts of the world, no matter where they are rotationally.

[Pale]

Are the peoples of the core looking up? We know what they see, that's in the books, but we don't know what they think. Have they reached the level of Galileo or Copernicus yet? have they built large (not giant) telescopes and pointed them skyward yet? Do universities have scolars on the payrole who do nothing but use such tools and record their observations? What do you guys think?

I'd imagine that there are formal astronomers in Lamordia and Dementlieu, if not, what is it, Paridon? Essentially, the most major of metropolii and most forward-thinking or inquisitive communities. I'd be surprised if Azalin didn't have a good record of what's above, but I assume that is for personal, not public, use. Each domain likely has a few hobbyists, but probably only the most Renaissance-inclined domains would have people working at it, mathematically and philosophically, full-time.

[Nerit]

I'll try to get Nathan in here when I see him online. He's done a whole thing on Hazlani astrology, so undoubtedly he's thought about planetary influences, and the cultures that look upward.

Also note that the zealous Darkonian Ezran sect uses astrology to predict the end times/Night, so they'd be referencing charts and someone would have to be keeping track of positions.

I spoke with my GMs and it seems they're (half) of the opinion that the domains work like our world. Where it's always cold it's further north, where it's always hot it's further south. This would imply a round planet, obviously. And frankly I just can't stand the idea of a plane without seasons. How miserable, and not to mention, stifling? So, I too would imagine that this is a tiny, magical (and relatively obscured) quasi-dimensional planet within a system of satellites and possibly other planets.

I guess on the flip side you could always go with a Discworld model. But that's just silly when no one has seen the "ends" of the domains; all ends in mist and leads back somewhere.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I have no problem saying that the dark powers let people see what they expect to see when they look up. Odd moon issues aside, I would expect the skies of the core to appear normally populated with normally moving stars and planets, even if they are actually just "pinpricks in the curtain of night." Even if you like the "Bluetspur on the moon" concept, like I do, the "curtain" could just be at an altitudes slightly higher than the moon.

Canon-wise, one of the RL or Spelljammer books says that if you fly up high enough in the Ravenloft sky, you just enter the mists and end up back on the ground. So there is no _real_ outer space, surely. (Until and unless the DP's decide they need a domain that's truly on a distant plane. Demiplanes can be infinite inside, even if finite outside, and the DP's have full control over their little toy. So they _could_ extend the existence of the Core up as far as they like, if needed.)

[Manofevil]

Hmmmm. Is navigation by the stars not used to sail the seas? There must be some consistancy for that to happen.

[Nathan of the FoS]

Hmmmm. Is navigation by the stars not used to sail the seas? There must be some consistancy for that to happen.

According to the canon Ravenloft 3e sources, the stars are not used to navigate the seas. For one thing, both major seas have permanent overcasts. (!) Instead, navigation is by magnetic compass and, presumably, log, lead and lookout.

I do not like this idea at all, but it is the canon.

[Nathan of the FoS]

Also, with regard to what Nerit mentioned, I have thought quite a bit about astrology in Ravenloft, and some about astronomy, and I will try to get up some thoughts on that some time when I am not preparing for my thesis defense. (!)

[DocBeard]

I like Nate's work. The 'canon' of astrology coming from Hazlan gives it some importance besides the other wizard domain.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

For one thing, both major seas have permanent overcasts. (!)

Really? I thought it was just the Nocturnal... I kinda liked that that distinguished it from the SoSorrows. Where does it say the SoS has the same issue?

[Nathan of the FoS]

For one thing, both major seas have permanent overcasts. (!)

Really? I thought it was just the Nocturnal... I kinda liked that that distinguished it from the SoSorrows. Where does it say the SoS has the same issue?

Domains of Dread, which is not a 3e source, now that I actually think about my sourcing. (I am 99% sure about this, but I will double-check tonight.) I don't recall if the same observation is made in the relevant 3e books.

[hidajiremi]

In my campaign, it's been established that the Land of Mists (most people's name for their world) is at the "bottom of the multiverse"; essentially, it's the cap on the entropy well that would be devouring all existence if it wasn't there. The dots of light that people can see in the night sky are representations of the infinite worlds of the multiverse, projected down through the ether between worlds. One character in my game put it poetically: "The stars shine to remind us that, however terrible things are, we are not alone."

From a "most people in the world" point of view, astronomy is a popular science among arcanists and scholars, since studying the stars allows mages to calculate the most efficient times of year for magical rituals. Pure scholars tend to be more astrologer than astronomer in most places, tying the movements of the heavens to events in the world, and possible hints of the future.

The multiple-moons thing is explained in two ways in my setting. In Nova Vaasa, there's an atmospheric condition that sometimes makes it look like there are five moons (the same way that there's a desert in Africa where it looks like there are two suns at sunrise and sunset). In Sithicus, there are three moons... but only those of elven blood can see the other two. No one knows why.


Jeremy Puckett

[Bluebomber4evr]

For one thing, both major seas have permanent overcasts. (!)

Really? I thought it was just the Nocturnal... I kinda liked that that distinguished it from the SoSorrows. Where does it say the SoS has the same issue?

Domains of Dread, which is not a 3e source, now that I actually think about my sourcing. (I am 99% sure about this, but I will double-check tonight.) I don't recall if the same observation is made in the relevant 3e books.

Only the Nocturnal Sea is permanently overcast. The moon and stars just aren't visible while on the Sea of Sorrows, although it does receive "weak and sickly" daylight.

[Talum]

In my games usualy i made it that every domain has its own "night mantle", and some domains share a common one, for example; the see of sorrow, dementlieu, lamordia, mordent, markovia, richemulot and valachan all share the same night sky, falkovnia has a very similar one with the odity that the moon is bigger and it turns red from time to time