The Wolf God

[Hallow]

Somehow in my chronicle of events the Wolf God has become an importent figure... or at least one that is to be seen much of as a deity.. And yet I am still unclear of all that the Wolf God is..
Is he not a non-existent being, and merely a figurehead for the darkpowers to, in a manner of speaking, poo all over it's worshippers by granting them power? Does the Wolf God exist, in or outside of Ravenloft?

[NeoTiamat]

Well, far as I know, the Wolfgod is a created deity. He appears only in the mind of Alfred Timothy and the people of Verbrek.

That said, he's not really any more or less real then any of the other gods of Ravenloft. The Dark Powers grant all divine magic in the Demiplane, and no god interferes in it by the Unspoken Pact.

Most of the gods of Ravenloft are simply corruptions of actual deities, or created ones like the Cult of the Overseer or the Wolf God. I think Ezra might be genuine, but she's a special case.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

The status of deities in Ravenloft is deliberately kept vague. The writers never openly say if divine spells in general come from the gods, the Dark Powers, the faith of their casters, or whatever (and the "Unspoken Pact" is only a popular hypothesis, not a rule or even a theory). Likewise, it's never stated outright if the versions of established game-deities which are worshipped in Ravenloft are the same entities as those known to the rest of the multiverse; the products only point out that the lack of any direct contact with deities (real or fake) means that creeds in Ravenloft tend to evolve over time, having no single divine voice to direct the clergy and keep them in line with the deity's will.

That being said, I believe the 2E products once inferred that the Wolf God seems more "real" than Zhakata (a rare exception to the norm, since we know Yagno made his deity up). Whether this can still be taken as fact in 3E, when "nonexistent" deities who attract sufficient worshippers seem just as viable in Ravenloft as those acknowledged in other game-settings, is pretty much the DM's call.

[LadySoth]

The status of deities in Ravenloft is deliberately kept vague. The writers never openly say if divine spells in general come from the gods, the Dark Powers, the faith of their casters, or whatever

I think that in Ravenloft, the power of devine spells originates directly from the faith of those casting the spell. Without true faith, the spells would have no power behind them. If you remember from the two Strahd novels, this issue comes up on several seperate occasions. A quote from The War Against Azazlin pg.33 when Strahd is confronting a group of strangers from outside of Barovia serves to prove my point:

The brigands were chanting. Their deep voices rose and fell in a strange, oddly rhythmic tongue. The words pounded at me like hammer blows. Some kind of spell . . .

Not a spell . . . prayer. A plea to one of their alien gods. Whether their deity from beyond the Mists was able to hear them mattered little; their faith alone was strong enough to render me helpless. When swords fail, men turn totheir gods, and this lot had the kind of true faith I hadn't faced in a very long time . . . I tried to scrabble free, but was utterly trapped in its grasp.

So I would say, given the above quote, that the devine spells derive their true power not from any particular diety, but directly from the faith of the people casting them, the only true refuge the inhabitants of Ravenloft have against the dark powers. So in essence, one could say that devine spells are actually prayers.

As for the Wolf God religion, I would say it is highly reminisent of early Druidism. From what I've read, the early Druids were actually a much simpler people then they were previously considered in the popular imagination. There is much recent evidence, uncovered in the last 30 years or so, that sheds doubt on the idea that the Druids were responsible for the huge monoliths in England (the most obvious being StoneHenge). Actually, what seems most likely to modern historians is that these giant monuments were actually built by the English themselves, who were NOT the dumb neanderthals that they had been supposed to be, but were in fact responsible for a complex system of archelogical sophistication that had previously been attributed to the Druids.

Getting back to the topic: from what we know today about the culture of the ancient Druids, the Wolf God religion seems the closest of the Ravenloft dieties to this ideal. Whether or not the Wolf God itself is a "real" figure, or one totally imagined by its faith, is of course another matter entirely, and is obviously open to speculation. But given the possibilities of the realm, I wouldn't be surprised if such a creature, DID really exist, in the Demiplane of Dread.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Not a spell . . . prayer. A plea to one of their alien gods. Whether their deity from beyond the Mists was able to hear them mattered little; their faith alone was strong enough to render me helpless. When swords fail, men turn totheir gods, and this lot had the kind of true faith I hadn't faced in a very long time . . . I tried to scrabble free, but was utterly trapped in its grasp.

So I would say, given the above quote, that the devine spells derive their true power not from any particular diety, but directly from the faith of the people casting them, the only true refuge the inhabitants of Ravenloft have against the dark powers. So in essence, one could say that devine spells are actually prayers.

Actually, the quote above only tells us where Strahd believes divine magic comes from, in the Land of Mists. (Note that a divine spell is still a spell, whether it's also a prayer or not, yet Strahd [a wizard and proud of it] doesn't consider divine magic to be "spells" per se; hence, he may be mistaken about this unfamiliar form of magic in other ways, also.) In-character theories from the game products are not necessarily true -- the Unspoken Pact is another explanation which people within the setting came up with, but cannot in any way prove or even test -- unless, of course, the DM chooses to make them so.

Nothing wrong with interpreting divine magic that way IYC, of course, LadySoth! But other DMs need not be obligated to treat it that way in their Ravenloft games, or NeoT's way, my way, or anybody else's.

[LadySoth]

Nothing wrong with interpreting divine magic that way IYC, of course, LadySoth! But other DMs need not be obligated to treat it that way in their Ravenloft games, or NeoT's way, my way, or anybody else's.

And that's what makes Ravenloft and most roleplaying in general so much fun! The power to be creative rests within the DM and the PCs, and the rules are only there for guidence. Personally, I like the fact that there are multiple interpretations to almost every aspect of Ravenloft . . . it keeps us on our toes and makes the series stay interesting. Just when you think you have it all figured out, the dark powers throw you for a loop and everything changes, just like the Mists themselves.

[NeoTiamat]

So true. Still, what I like about Ravenloft religion is that it has its emphasis on the mortal, not the divine.

Practically speaking, what is known about religion in Ravenloft? Just about anyone can cast divine spells, with sufficient belief behind them, regardless of whether this belief if valid or completely false, or even whether the deity would grant spells to such a straying cleric (Thus you get the evil priests of Belenus in the Shadowlands, evil priests of a good deity).

Other then that, we also know that by and large, the Deities don't or can't interfere in Ravenloft. Clerics who had a close relationship with their deity before don't anymore. Of course, some clerics claim to recieve visions from their deity, but thats kinda hard to prove. As in real life, the distinction between being touched by god and touched in the head is a fine one.

[Undead Cabbage]

Nothing wrong with interpreting divine magic that way IYC, of course, LadySoth! But other DMs need not be obligated to treat it that way in their Ravenloft games, or NeoT's way, my way, or anybody else's.

Just think of all the different interpretations there has been of Ezra.

BTW, Roti I hope you don't mind if I yoink your idea that Ezra is a really powerful Anti-Phantasmagoria. At least, as far as the Mordentish sect is concerned.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

BTW, Roti I hope you don't mind if I yoink your idea that Ezra is a really powerful Anti-Phantasmagoria. At least, as far as the Mordentish sect is concerned.

Go right ahead!

[The Giamarga]

As somebody mentioned druidism: I altered Alfred Timothy's class build slightly to include some levels of the 3.0 prestige class Bane of Infidels from Masters of the Wild. It's abilities gel perfectly with his backstory imho. You can also glean some nice rules on standing stones from MotW. The standing stones in Verbrek are rumored to be a magic site and with this prestige class Alfred will be able to tap into their power soon.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

(Thus you get the evil priests of Belenus in the Shadowlands, evil priests of a good deity).

Or even the other way around: there's a Lawful Good, spell-casting cleric of Bane (= the Lawgiver) in one of the Books of S_______, who assumes that the church in his native Nova Vaasa have to be the ones who are getting his patron deity's creed all wrong!

Other then that, we also know that by and large, the Deities don't or can't interfere in Ravenloft.

We know they don't interfere. Whether that's because the gods literally can't interfere, or can but don't choose to, or because they aren't really there to do so, is entirely a judgement call, in-character as well as for DMs. The Eberron setting does something similiar, FWIW, and for much the same reasons (i.e. to keep the focus on mortals and allow moral uncertainty).

[Gwenfloor]

Do you mean Bane, from the Forgotten Realms?

[Brandi]

Do you mean Bane, from the Forgotten Realms?

Sort of. WW couldn't use the TSR/WotC names for various IP reasons, but I also like to think that the cultural evolution of Ravenloft means that if you have a Forgotten Realms Banite thrown into the Land of Mists he's going to find the Church of the Lawgiver strangely wrong if not flat-out blasphemous...

[Undead Cabbage]

We know they don't interfere. Whether that's because the gods literally can't interfere, or can but don't choose to, or because they aren't really there to do so, is entirely a judgement call, in-character as well as for DMs. The Eberron setting does something similiar, FWIW, and for much the same reasons (i.e. to keep the focus on mortals and allow moral uncertainty).

For this reason the list of deities in RL is kept relatively small in comparison to something like Forgotten Realms. Having a pratically never ending list of Deities (many of which were originally mortals) works very well in a high magic campaign such as FR, but would be anti-atmospheric in a horror campaign. On top of that, the religions that fall outside of the 'big-three' (Ezra, Hala, the Law Giver) tend to be realm, and in certain cases monster specific. This keeps the idea of a 'different religion' a part of everyday life in FR, and something exotic and mysterious (perhaps even dangerous) in RL.

[Mortavius]

As well, with the example of Strahd being held at bay by faith, this might not even be referring to divine power. Van Richten states in his Guide to Vampires that someone with genuine faith can hold a Vampire at bay with a holy symbol, whether they can channel positive energy or not.