Philosophy of Ravenloft

[Patrick Teufelmann]

This is "simple" question . What is meaning of Ravenloft? Playground for the Dark Powers, prison deep in the mist or something else? It´s place for the most terrible events or some kind of "Last Chance" for villains to undone their grim acts? What do you think?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Given the extreme variation in the nature of the darklords -- there's ONE lich, ONE mummy, ONE intelligent magic item, etc -- combined with the common "themes" of so many of their crimes -- killing relatives, betrayal, obsession with people (as opposed to mere power) -- I've always been of the opinion that there's some kind of *demonstration* value to each of the individuals selected to become darklords. If the DPs were merely out to collect powerful villains, you'd see more redundancy in the types of evil beings who are granted domains (e.g. hundreds of liches and no measly wererats); if they were choosing darklords solely on the magnitude of their crimes, they'd have snapped up Hitler (or his future-Gothic Earth equivalent) and left Strahd (who initially murdered a grand total of *two* people, or three if you count his friend Alek) to sulk.

Instead, I believe that the DPs are pursuing an agenda of collecting a lot of different *aspects* of evil, both in its physical manifestations (i.e. evil humans, evil non-humans, evil undead) and -- more importantly -- in the motivations and weaknesses of character that bring evil deeds about. At the same time, they seem to find particular value in crimes against one's own family and/or trusting associates (e.g. there's more kinslayers than serial killers), and they very strongly focus upon those whose crimes are related to *human* nature and flaws: virtually all darklords are humans, human-wannabees, nonhumans obsessed with (albeit inimical to) human beings, or ex-humans (such as undead). Beings *totally* evil and without a counterbalancing human aspect, such as fiends, don't interest them at all, unless there's something about them (the God-Brain's and shadow fey's alteration of humans; the Gentleman Caller's siring of half-human half-fiends) than pertains to human nature's debasement.

Conclusion? I think the Dark Powers have to be trying to either figure out the nature of (human) evil, or else collect enough examples of such evil to prove some kind of philosophical/ethical point. Given the track-record of innocent bystanders who've been caught in the crossfire of this great scavenger-hunt for darklords, I very much doubt that it'll be a good thing if they ever complete their researches and/or gather enough evidence of humanity's weaknesses to satisfy their goals.

[Shoon VII]

on the flip side, it could be a crucible to test the mettle of humanity against the diaspora of human evil and iniquity that the DL represent.

[Darkknight]

The way I have twisted the land of mists is towards a prison... Suprise, Suprise.. I hold it as a prison for evil gods, the ones who have died or been force out. These deities then search for aspects of themselves to draw into the demiplane.

As for the darklords and evil, it is the style of evil that brings them in. Betrayal and murder are common items for each darklord resume, but to expand on what Rotipher is saying these killings are attached to emotions. I believe that is another key to who is drawn in. Serial killers and Hitler's murder mostly without feeling. The DP's seem to feed off of the suffering of those they bring in and give power to.

The darklords also seem to have some redeeming quality to them. That is why I was attracted to Ravenloft. The best example I can give is from Vampire of the Mists... Strahd and Jandar in a jam session... Strahd begins to feel somehting and then goes nuts. I like to see that no matter how evil the being is... Not all that was can truly be destroyed.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

It is all about lab rats and who can find the cheese first

The dark lords are the rats, the world is the mave and the dark powers are the curious scientists.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Given the extreme variation in the nature of the darklords -- there's ONE lich

Two, if you count Vecna.

ONE mummy

Two, Anktepot and Tiyet.

But I'm just being an annoying nitpicker.

Conclusion? I think the Dark Powers have to be trying to either figure out the nature of (human) evil, or else collect enough examples of such evil to prove some kind of philosophical/ethical point.

That's a distrubing thought. Perhaps it's evidence for a 'trial' by some higher beings. (Like the Q from Star Trek). The human race (and its undead, lycanthropic, and therianthropic offshoots) stand accused of being a scourge on the face of the multiverse and are on trial, with a guilty verdict meaning complete annihilation. The Dark Powers are assembling their testimony from the worst of the worst in every category, not for magnitude of their crimes, but illustrative purposes. (You could put in Ebonbane as proof that even human creations turn to evil. I don't know where Gwydion fits in. Godbrain depends on what his canon background turns out to be.)

The question is, where are the public defense attorneys? Are they making an "anti-Ravenloft" out there full of Brightlords? or are they working from within, encouraging the bright spots in the darkness, the heroes of Ravnloft. (Could Ezra herself be the lawyer on our side?)

[Corrupted_Loremaster]

But then what would be the cheese?

I've been playing around with an idea lately, that the demiplane is some kind of training ground, meant to produce heroes for existance's final battle-royal between good and evil. Heroes who arise in Ravenloft might not have the sheer firepower those in other realms might, but they'll certainly be right near the top for determination, analytical skills, and creativity in how they deal with enimies. Plus should any of the Darklords see the light before the metiphorical bell rings to indicate the final round's begun, so much the better. Could you imagine what Strahd or Azalin could acomplish if they could be redeemed? Or even other less powerful ones like Dominic or Adam? Then again, there's plenty of things to discount this theory, but since it's unlikely a clear answer will ever be given, one idea seems as good as the next.

[Shoon VII]

Could you imagine what Strahd or Azalin could acomplish if they could be redeemed?

now THAT'S a scary thought

[Nathan of the FoS]

My favorite idea for "why Ravenloft exists" is that it IS a prison--for the Dark Powers.

The Dark Powers are un-gods or anti-gods from another kind of existence who came into the standard D&D multiverse, caused a lot of trouble, and were eventually trapped by the gods in what would become Ravenloft (in rather the same way that the bad guys in Superman II were trapped in two dimensions). After spending a long time trying to get out, they decided that they needed some "inside help"--creatures from this multiverse who they could draw into their own trap. They (the Dark Powers) would provide the strongest possible incentives to, first, draw these creatures in, and second, make sure they would want to get out--letting the Dark Powers ride to freedom on their coat-tails.

The first person they succeeded in contacting was one Strahd von Zarovich, and from there the story is familiar to us.

The Dark Powers are, therefore, collecting people who would do ANYTHING to achieve a certain goal, and then preventing them from achieving that goal, in order to keep them struggling for escape.

Soth stopped struggling, so they threw him back. Vecna proved too big a fish to reel in. Azalin, perhaps, isn't as good as he thinks he is; most of the rest are disappointments but not yet outright failures, so the Dark Powers are maintaining them while looking for something better.

[Jasper]

I play ravenloft as a huge exparament run by the Dark Powers to answer a age old question- "If given the choice between power and salvation what path would mortals take?"

In responce the DP started with Strahd. Allready tainted and hardened by horror of war on that night he was given a choice- "Let your brother have his bride and go gently into old age with the gaurantee that your soul will be cleansed and you will pass on to a higher state or take the offer of power and claim your brothers bride as your own knowing that you damn yourself eternal punishment."

He took option B and his prison was created for him.

IMC the DP are bound by three rules-
1. Each gift must be chosen by the mortals own free will. IE: A person under a charm spell or under the effects of madness can never be punished for their crimes.
2. No one is beyond redemtion. I have a built in excape clasuse for all the dark lords that is just withing their ablitie to do but far to lothsome for them to do (IE: Strahd finaly allowing T to finaly join Sergi's spirt beyond the mists.) Doing so will revoke any gifts and return them to that of a normal human so they make try to make amends.
3. No one is beyond temptation. Anyone can be corupted with the offer no matter what supposed powers they might possess (IE: God brain, Ebonbane, the DL of the shaddow rift)

The every day people of Rl are the reincarnated souls of those who have died on other worlds while atempting the prosess of redemtion. The DP give them another chance to live a life of virtue and to rise to the higher planes after death.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Nitpicks aside, Gonzoron, that's one possible explanation for why the DPs might be gathering in so many villains (i.e. human nature on trial).

The other possible use for such "evidence" that I can think of is to support the overall argument (complete with examples) that Evil *really is* irredeemable, by showing how many souls -- humans mainly, hence not possessed of any pre-existing bias in alignment -- opt for the darker path, when they're given a choice between pursuing their base lusts and ambitions, or forfeiting those cravings and thus escaping their self-invited doom. This would explain why it's so critical for darklords to make an *independent choice* to become evil -- with the sole exception of Strahd, the DPs never openly try to convince evildoers to fall -- because it's the fact that the darklords do HAVE a choice in the matter, and choose Evil even when doing so only brings cursed suffering upon themselves, that gives such willful refusal to repent its relevance to the argument.

Either way, the ironic thing about either of these philosophical debates -- "Is Humanity Too Evil To Live?" or "Is Evil Irredeemable?" -- is that it not only makes the heroes of Ravenloft a critical flaw in the DPs' evidence -- if humanity is inherently evil, what about Van Richten and his successors? if evil is irredeemable, what about PCs who fail a Powers check, then atone and come back from the brink? -- but it also means that the darklords' own moments of grace are knocking the heck out of their case! As horrible as they are, most darklords *do* exhibit the odd moment of gentler feeling -- Azalin's fair treatment of the peasant youth who aided him when he first came to Darkon; Elena's and Zolnik's good intentions, however they may have gone awry; Strahd's rescue of a little girl in "Caretaker" -- which shows they're not *totally* depraved and beyond the pale. Perhaps the reason the Dark Powers are still hard at work, gathering darklords and building their case, is because every time they think they've found the "clincher" for their argument, one of their pieces of "evidence" up and does something just the slightest bit decent, forcing them to go digging for yet *another* irredeemably-evil soul.

[Tommy Brownell]

To back up the "Humanity on Trial" argument...

How many Elven Darklords are there? Dwarven? Gnomish? Halfling? There's not even a steenking Drow elf laying around there as a DL.

The closest is the Shadow Fey (Tristessa).

That's not to say that members of those races don't get punished in their own way (Azreal), but by and large, it's very definitely humans who make up nearly the entirety of the Darklord spectrum.

[Manofevil]

I've tossed this idea around in my head a couple of times and given certain factors, I've concluded that the most likely function that Ravenloft serves is as a battery of suffering; who knows what for. Consider, There is very little joy in Ravenloft. Almost everyone is for one reason or another depressed, miserable, enraged, afraid, resentful, aggrieved, etc., etc., etc. There's almost never any reason to celebrate and any celebration usually masks terrible happenings of one sort or another. There just isn't a lot to hope for in Ravenloft for DarkLords or commoners. Consider also that no DarkLOrd has ever really been released in any real sense from Ravenloft. Soth and Vecna didn't change a bit at least as far as I could see and could find themselves swallowed by mists at any time. I might consider redemption a part of the package if it ever was seen to happen but it never is. There's never anything even close. Perhaps the escape clause does in fact exist, then again perhaps we, the consumers, have merely implied that it's there. Any DarkLord that suspects its existence hasn't tried it yet. Perhaps, rather than experimenting with human nature, The DPs are feeding themselves on established human behavioral patterns and responses. Or perhaps I should say, Gorging themselves

[Shadow]

None of my players use this board, so I'll tell a little about my view of Ravenloft. (And if any of my players do find this board and read this post, may they be struck down by a Vistani curse!:) )



In my campaign the dark powers are essentially very powerful, evil entities that were banished at the creation of the universe (or multiverse in terms of D&D). If the dark powers were good why would they cause so much suffering? Tormenting the darklords, has nothing to do with justice. It just causes the darklords to take out their anger on the people.
I've toyed with the idea of making the dark powers beyond good and evil, but in the end, I decided to make the dark powers malevolent. I view gothic horror as the contrast between good and evil, innocence and corruption. If the dark powers were simply amoral, it would remove some of the good vs. evil conflict inherent in the setting IMHO.

Anyway, what is the purpose of Ravenloft? To put it simply, fear and negative emotions.

I've tossed this idea around in my head a couple of times and given certain factors, I've concluded that the most likely function that Ravenloft serves is as a battery of suffering; who knows what for. Consider, There is very little joy in Ravenloft. Almost everyone is for one reason or another depressed, miserable, enraged, afraid, resentful, aggrieved, etc., etc., etc. There's almost never any reason to celebrate and any celebration usually masks terrible happenings of one sort or another. There just isn't a lot to hope for in Ravenloft for DarkLords or commoners. Consider also that no DarkLOrd has ever really been released in any real sense from Ravenloft. Soth and Vecna didn't change a bit at least as far as I could see and could find themselves swallowed by mists at any time. I might consider redemption a part of the package if it ever was seen to happen but it never is. There's never anything even close. Perhaps the escape clause does in fact exist, then again perhaps we, the consumers, have merely implied that it's there. Any DarkLord that suspects its existence hasn't tried it yet. Perhaps, rather than experimenting with human nature, The DPs are feeding themselves on established human behavioral patterns and responses. Or perhaps I should say, Gorging themselves Very Happy

This is similar to my idea. Standard D&D assumes that gods draw power from worshippers. However, the dark powers draw power from negative emotions, the loss of innocence, etc. They are using the plane to gain energy. Someday they hope to gain enough power to challenge even the gods.
Of course, there is a secondary purpose. The demiplane contains some of the worst villians and vile creatures. The entire realm is serving as a breeding ground for evil. Someday soon the demilplane will be disolved by the dark powers (hence The Time of Unparalleled Darkness) and the evil dispersed over the multiverse. The resulting chaos will aid the dark powers as they wage war with the universe.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

FWIW, I thought of another implication for the "Demonstrations Of Evil" theory over the weekend ... namely, an entirely different 'spin' on Soth's ejection from Ravenloft. What if, instead of getting bored or frustrated with the death knight's unresponsiveness, the DPs booted the Sithican darklord out because they'd already gotten all the proof they need from him, that he (Soth) was irredeemably corrupt?

Consider the circumstances in "Black Roses", when Soth -- initially one of the most promising darklords, demonstration-wise, given that he'd let his entire planet suffer catastrophic harm for mere pride's sake -- has retreated into juvenile wish-fulfilling fantasies inside his magic mirrors ... fantasies, in which he gets to play the HERO, not the villain. Can it really be a coincidence that the DPs, normally so stand-offish and coy, took a more active role in engineering the mirrors' destruction and the dispeling of Soth's efforts to re-write his memories? The last thing the DPs want is for yet another piece of their evidence (whether of humanity's failings or of Evil's irredeemable nature) to start playing the "good guy", even if only in his imagination! On the contrary, they arrange for PCs to disrupt each and every one of Soth's fairy-tale imaginings ... and in ways that reveal him to still be the same ol' backstabbing bastard inside.

Perhaps inspired by this persistance of Evil in Soth's response to that very adventure, or perhaps because they know he'll just retreat into denial yet again if he's left in Ravenloft indefinitely, the DPs then engineer a climax to Soth's years of imprisonment as a darklord: one that will confront his with the exact same choice he'd originally made, to betray Krynn and his wife and child, re-enacted anew in Sithicus. If Soth still makes the same choice now -- even knowing the doom it brought upon him and his world; even knowing that the stories of his elven bride's infidelity were lies -- then that decision will prove that HE, at least, is as utterly irredeemable as the darkest of fiends. And indeed, faced with the same choice, Soth stands by his abhorrant stance that he'd rather betray everything he'd once cherished and forfeit his own chance of redemption rather than tolerate being betrayed; hence, the events of "Spectre".

This would mean that Soth was not a disappointment to the Dark Powers; on the contrary, his repetition of his original crime, even knowing all he knew, made him an invaluable testament to humanity's potential to not only turn Evil, but REMAIN Evil -- consciously, deliberately Evil -- even when the chance for atonement is handed to them on a silver platter. In which case, it's only natural they'd let him return to whatever loathesome existence they'd snatched him from: no matter how long they kept him in Ravenloft, he'd never provide a stronger argument than he does at the finale of "Spectre".

Which brings up an intriguing question: If the Dark Powers would set up a situation like that for Soth -- one where a darklord must confront his or her original misdeeds, and consciously and knowingly choose whether to repeat them or not, with hindsight's full awareness of the consequences -- then is it part of their plan to do the same thing for other darklords? Was that what all that business in the G'Henna module was really about: forcing Yagno to face the truth -- that Zhakata is merely a figment of his own delusional mind -- and choose whether to continue oppressing the G'Hennans in the name of a fictional god? Did an analogous confrontation we're not privy to take place for Nathan Timothy, during or close to the Great Upheaval, the result of which prompted the DPs to also release HIM to roam his native plane (which just happened to be Ravenloft)? Just how much of what happens in Ravenloft is intended to drive darklords toward these critical second-chance choices ... and are the DPs rigging events, to ensure they'll make the desired (=Evil) ones?