To Retcon or Not Retcon: That is the Question

[Faust]

I think the ravenloft setting has 4 big problems:

1.Small size of the land: I think this one has been talked about enough already but I think the size should be retconned to be at least the size of europe and some new domains should be added to the core.

2.Demihumans: Either retcon them out of the setting or at least include them in the setting. I mean we need a dwarf domain and other domains populated by demihumans. I think demihumans make the ravenloft setting different from other horror setting. It give ravenloft some personnality. Giving more importance to demihumans would put the setting more firmly into dnd.

3.Underpopulated: Already been talked about. But I want to add that underpopulation destroy some interesting upportunity like a massive war or epidemic.

4.Lack of coherence between domains: some domain should be reworked to fit more in the setting or at least be made island of terrors. And exemple of this would be Lamordia, a backwater domain where nothing happens and whose technological level is to high.

[NeoTiamat]

While I agree in principle with Faust, I'd like to make a few addendums:

1: Yes size should be increased. No, new domains should not be added. As is, the relations between the domains have been expanded upon, elaborated, and detailed. Tossing in new domains would through a monkey wrench into that. I also don't think we should make the domain quite the size of europe. As is, most domains have between 2-7 large towns. Enough for a decent sized region, but not for a large country. My thought on how to decide just how large is to perhaps run a large poll (or just have the FoS decide it), and then rework all the numbers. This'd be easier if the Mordentish cartographic society was still active...

2: I disagree on the idea of a new domain, but I do think demihumans should get more attention (who came up with the name demihuman anyway? They're species like the others. Might as well call humans demielves...). Perhaps detail Dwarven, Gnome, and Halfling culture? Elves have their own domain, and so are fairly well detailed. half Elves, half-vistani and calibans work as is. Still, I do think someone should write up a hefty article, at the least, on demihumans in the Core. Perhaps have the Gnomes serve as record keepers and tutors in human societies, include an dwarven area, if not domain, in darkon, perhaps have Halflings as a kind of additional society. There is a lot that could bedone here.

3: Same as 1, for the same reasons and handled in the same way.

4: I don't think that domains should be turned into IoT, but I would agree that adding some more foriegn relations detail would be nice. Likewise, certain domains should really be used more in adventures and writing and what-not. Lamordia, Valachan, Nova Vaasa, even Sithicus aren't really as used as they could be.

5: Fix the time. It's a pain nearly as bad as the size.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Honestly, I don't really understnad what the problem is, at all.

RL is a setting you can play without too much further help than the adventure you're running and maybe a few info from the main sourcebooks. As I see it, it's normal that RL DMs tend to stay away from metaplot-heavy discussions or campaign.

In short, IMO, the setting does not need to renewed; but the metaplot should maybe not be allaborated any more. For me, it's just fine as it is.

[Stygian Inquirer]

Ok, I think it is time for me to weigh in.

A lot of the problems that people have been talking about are DM preferences. If you want Ravenloft bigger then make it bigger, if you want more demihumans or population then create some demihuman communities or increase existing populations, if you want more continuity between domains, feel free to do it that way (Personally, I run it so that there is a misty border between all of the domains keeping them individual but it all depends).

I played regular D&D for 2 years until I discovered Ravenloft (through the novels, actually) when I went on vacation and saw the Campaign Setting in a store in San Francisco and bought it right then. Since then I have DMed purely Ravenloft. I do it because I like the atmosphere, plot and creativity that you can add to it. My players have never complained about it being too small and I have never found it to be a problem. Do I use every single plot twist? No, and sometimes I even make my own. I ran a campaign in 772 as kind of a precursor to a later campaign which will be the ToUD and I made up the events that happened between 759 and 775 so it would fit my campaign plot. I think that Ravenloft and only Ravenloft gives you so much creativity. Since starting to DM Ravenloft, I have played Eberron (ugh), Forgotten Realms (too many rules) and Greyhawk (not enough plot) and I have always come back to Ravenloft and enjoyed helping my players experience a mist-shrouded world of gothic horror and I so far they have all enjoyed it.

[BigBadQDaddy]

(sigh)
I hate doing this, lol, it seems every time I open my big fat mouth I get blasted (see the 4th ed post from way back) But I really have to agree with Stygian Inquirer.
For starters, I originally hated 3rd ed Ravenloft. I hated everything to do with 3rd ed, and this was after playing it for a couple of years, but low and behold, many of you here swayed me back into the 3rd ed saddle. Since then I have purchased every 3rd ed ravenloft book and I am still obsessivley imersed with these products.
We all need to face the facts, and I love this analogy, The creature (Ravenloft) has been given life by those who love and obsess over it. And now that it walks and breathes, some of you want to cripple it?
Clearing the slate would be a total abomination to all the passion that has fueled this setting for so long. And I take no scorn in saying this, screw the new players. Seriously, WotC has given up on this product, We carry the torch. The only thing wiping the slate or retconning would do is cause a much undesired frustration to us, The only ones left who still have faith in a great game setting. Why cause us the annoyance and much un-needed frustration?
WotC isn't going to do anything to bring new players to Ravenloft, that is up to us, and I personally don't have the time or resources to completley revamp a, IMO, great game in hopes of bringing in new players.
It's our time Ladys and Gentlemen. Lets do for Us and continue to fuel the funeral pyre. Nobody is going to save this game from dissappearing from the shelves. Lets do our best to make sure it doesn't dissappear from our nightmares.

[NeoTiamat]

I wish you were wrong, but I fear that you're right....

[Jester of the FoS]

2: I disagree on the idea of a new domain, but I do think demihumans should get more attention (who came up with the name demihuman anyway? They're species like the others. Might as well call humans demielves...). Perhaps detail Dwarven, Gnome, and Halfling culture? Elves have their own domain, and so are fairly well detailed. half Elves, half-vistani and calibans work as is. Still, I do think someone should write up a hefty article, at the least, on demihumans in the Core. Perhaps have the Gnomes serve as record keepers and tutors in human societies, include an dwarven area, if not domain, in darkon, perhaps have Halflings as a kind of additional society. There is a lot that could bedone here.

Someone needs to check out Quoth the Raven, the Fraternity's netbook series. Issues #12 and 13 from here:
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Library.html

While I wince at plugging myself, I do some lengthy articles on dwarves, halflings and elves (Races of the Mists parts I through III). Next is gnomes whenever we get around to QtR#14.

[Jester of the FoS]

Okay, idea. We don't need a new player's guide (as writing one would violate far, far too many copyrights) but a DT&DL style book of adventure hooks, weekend in hell mini-campaigns, adventure series and the like might not be a bad idea.
It can describe new towns, places forgotten and establish the feel of the setting.

[NeoTiamat]

*hits self on head* D'oh!

[Edit: I just went back and looked through the more recent QTRs. Not quite sure how I managed to miss it. Bleh.... yah....foot in mouth, check, acute embarassment , check, search for a rock to hide under, check.

Seriously though, incredibly good and exquisitely detailed work. Please accept my humblest apologies if I have offended you. Sorry.....

Bad Tiamat, Bad!]

[BigBadQDaddy]

Okay, idea. We don't need a new player's guide (as writing one would violate far, far too many copyrights) but a DT&DL style book of adventure hooks, weekend in hell mini-campaigns, adventure series and the like might not be a bad idea.
It can describe new towns, places forgotten and establish the feel of the setting.

This is a really good idea.
If not totally fleshing out towns, maybe just basic information on what they're generally like, or names and locations.
I tend to incorporate alot of made up towns in my game, becuase I can get away with whatever I want in them. For instance I had a small farming community in Tepest get wiped out by a vengefull Scarecrow. So I pretty much had to make up the town and what it's inhabitants were like so the party had something worth while to investigate.

[Desertrising]

My first experience with ravenloft was with the first edition dungeons and dragons module. I rember seeing it and being like.. Cool! a dungeon about a vampire. Then I read it and was awestruck. It is perhaps one of the best modules I have ever had a chance of reading and running. It was so marvelous that I still think about some 15 years after I had the chance to run it.

Then one day birthday shopping I saw the Ravenloft boxed set. I immediately snatched it up and bought it. After reading it, I immediately ran a weekend in hell style adventure and my players loved it. I loved it too and we made many a visit to the lands of the loft.

Then 3rd ed. came out. I was stoked, specially since it was a WW imprint type lable, and while a lot of people seemed not to like a couple of the earlier efforts, I really enjoyed what they did and vowed to keep up with the line and was very sad when it ended.

However despite all this I agree the setting does seem to be a bit convaluted and a retcon could be a good idea.

[Jonathan Winters]

About the meta-plot(s).

Hum...

The Gaz plot with S is pretty much officially over I guess. Unless WW finds it in their hearts to share the ending with us. I assume it belongs to them and not the various Kargatane.

Does it bother / annoy / stifle (etc.) me? No. Because it's there for me to use if I want to. I don't want it to exist. Boom. Gone. No problem. Don't want your players getting involved, either forget it or just have the effects felt on the land, like background action. (In my current campaign, the GC just ended but my players have no clue what it was. Just that the land changed.)

The Frat's meta-plot? Why do I get the feeling that it's written in such a way as not to disturb anybody's campaign.

Would I get rid of meta-plots?
NEVER!
They are an amazing source of inspiration. (And a damn good read!)

SO, this ties into my first position: I do not want to retcon.

The setting is amazing, as is. Perfect? No. But really, really good.

BUT, I will mention again that we might want to find a way to make the setting more dynamic. The presence of darklords makes RL a static political environment. Maybe that would have been a problem that the K would have addressed? How long can (almost) ALL the political rulers of the core live before someone starts asking questions?

Question: Would RL get a new life if we took the DL out of the equation? I am not saying we should absolutely get rid of them, but maybe find a way rules-wise to have the land live without DL. Also, maybe work out a different way of handling borders? If RL were bigger, maybe we could introduce ''buffer zones'' at the limits of domains, so maybe DL could interact a bit more? For example, Drakov could go to war (and still get his @$$ kicked).

Just throwing some ideas...

Patrick

[Igor the Henchman]

And I take no scorn in saying this, screw the new players.

I do not agree.

[Jonathan Winters]

About this:

And I take no scorn in saying this, screw the new players.
******

Hum, yes that might be a bit harsh... Not the best of ways to promote the setting.

Patrick

[NeoTiamat]

I do like the idea of buffer zones.

Azalin vs. Drakov, Round One.
Azalin vs. Pile of Ashes formerly known as Drakov, Round Two.