Drakov and seige engines

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HuManBing
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Re: Drakov and seige engines

Post by HuManBing »

Manofevil wrote:This is probably another thread but has Falkovnia ever been invaded by one of its neighbors?
Nowhere in canon do I recall this. Drakov's massive army and considerable resources make this a really difficult prospect. The only sort of challenge he can't deal with squarely would be infiltration (as per Vladimir Ludzig) and indirect guerrilla warfare (as per the kobold insurrection). And even those rely on subterfuge and evasion. If Drakov ever got enough of a handle on them to force a direct confrontation, sheer numbers would favor his side, even regardless of the rigorous military training his men get.



(Edited to include the quoted message, to make sure people knew what I was denying.)
Last edited by HuManBing on Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Drakov and seige engines

Post by herkles »

I know that dementlieu has been invaded by Drakov in the past, though it wasn't a long war more of a skirmish. Domnic was able to use his mind control powers to stop them, though If I recall correctly most dementlieuse believe that their superior weaponry drove him back, ie their canons and muskets and other gunpowder inventions.
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Re: Drakov and seige engines

Post by brilliantlight »

You are correct. Dominic isn't exactly broadcasting the fact that he has mind control powers. :)
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Re: Drakov and seige engines

Post by Kessler »

ewancummins wrote:In canon materials, have Drakov's invasions of his neighbors failed because their armies defeated his or because the Darklords defeated him with supernatural powers? Both?
Sure, in RL there are basically no forts, however, some cities have walls. So in my opinion - Drakov has all kinds of different war machines, but there is no real use for them. But he makes them anyway...
herkles wrote:Domnic was able to use his mind control powers to stop them, though If I recall correctly most dementlieuse believe that their superior weaponry drove him back, ie their canons and muskets and other gunpowder inventions.
Yes, it was in Gaz3 under Dementlieu history section.
P((hρ (A)- ρ/<έ) →n-∞1 (∑>0)
P(x=k)=(n/k)ρk(ˇ1-ρ)n-k
P(x≥1)=(10/1)•(1/6)•1(1-1/6)10-1+…1
+(10/10) : (1/6)10(1-1/6)0
=0,8385
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Re: Drakov and seige engines

Post by ewancummins »

Kessler wrote:
ewancummins wrote:In canon materials, have Drakov's invasions of his neighbors failed because their armies defeated his or because the Darklords defeated him with supernatural powers? Both?
Sure, in RL there are basically no forts, however, some cities have walls. So in my opinion - Drakov has all kinds of different war machines, but there is no real use for them. But he makes them anyway...
herkles wrote:Domnic was able to use his mind control powers to stop them, though If I recall correctly most dementlieuse believe that their superior weaponry drove him back, ie their canons and muskets and other gunpowder inventions.
Yes, it was in Gaz3 under Dementlieu history section.
Oh, engines are still useful against city walls.
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Re: Drakov and seige engines

Post by Scipion_Emilien »

HuManBing wrote:Nowhere in canon do I recall this. Drakov's massive army and considerable resources make this a really difficult prospect. The only sort of challenge he can't deal with squarely would be infiltration (as per Vladimir Ludzig) and indirect guerrilla warfare (as per the kobold insurrection). And even those rely on subterfuge and evasion. If Drakov ever got enough of a handle on them to force a direct confrontation, sheer numbers would favor his side, even regardless of the rigorous military training his men get.
With four rich neighbors on their toes for a Drakov invasion, I'm pretty sure that the spy game in Falkovnia must be pretty intensives. And I'm not sure that Drakov is well equip against that threat.

As for the invasion of Falkovnia, even barring darklord power, I'm pretty sure that the other domain just don't have the resource and military tradition to raise an army big enough to do an invasion. At the possible exception of Darkon, that just doesn't seem to be concern by Falkovnia, even during a mass invasion.

Finally, for the Vauban fortress, this kind of fortress is a really big investment. At the exception of Dementlieu, and possibly Borca, I don't see any other domain with the resources and technology to do that. And I'm sure of the cost-efficiency of those building.

Sure this kind of fortress would be impregnable by Drakov army, but he would move around like water to strike anything else. by just avoiding the fortress he could do a lot of damage while the army is pin in fortress.

It would probably a lot better to use this money to outfit the army with more flexible possibilities. The combinaison of gunpowder and light/unarmored army would give the edge to Dementlieuse force in any battle as long as the commander is willing to harass and withdraw when need.
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Re: Drakov and seige engines

Post by HuManBing »

Scipion_Emilien wrote:With four rich neighbors on their toes for a Drakov invasion, I'm pretty sure that the spy game in Falkovnia must be pretty intensives. And I'm not sure that Drakov is well equip against that threat.
Again, this depends on how you use Drakov for your campaign. If he's a whimsical homicidal maniac, then maybe his intelligence service isn't up to par. But if he's a shrewd leader and reasonably innovative thinker, then there's no reason Falkovnian intelligence is any worse than other nations.

Spying in Falkovnia is going to be difficult: you can't pass as Falkovnian unless you have the forehead hawk brand mark. Also, assuming you do get into the country without attracting obvious attention as on outsider, you have to figure out whom you can trust - Falkovnian civilians are cowed into reporting their neighbors' affairs to the secret police, and if Falkovnia is like Stalinist Russia or Nazi Germany, then the state's informants will have much freer rein than even in Darkon (where they cannot quite operate in the open). Both of these factors make Falkovnia a potentially hard nut to crack. (For a realworld analogy, NATO found it very hard to get good spy networks in Communist China during the Cold War - NATO operatives usually were the wrong ethnicity, and the Chinese Communist Party had such complete control over personal lives of citizens that infiltration was very difficult.)

In fact, even technological backwardness need not equate to inferior intel work. The Soviet Union consistently lagged behind NATO countries in tech, and they had an unrivalled spy network worldwide during the Cold War.

My campaigns have featured Falkovnia as having the best intelligence agency in the Core. I devoted a campaign badguy, Yuri Mitrovic, as the Nachrichtendienst's Falkführer - and in a significant departure from the usual Falkovnian stereotype, I had him as an urbane, bland puppetmaster rather than a bloodthirsty sadist.

Another poster also had an excellent post suggesting that Ravenloft's main mode of messenger transmission was through carrier pigeon. The Falkovnians may have easily trained hawks specially to hunt down incoming pigeons so their handlers can intercept the messages. If they're really devious, they could even train the hawks to capture, not kill, the pigeons - which means you can return the message to the pigeon so it arrives at its intended destination, with the recipient none the wiser. Or you could substitute another message in the pigeon.
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Re: Drakov and seige engines

Post by ewancummins »

That other poster was moi, IIRC. Pigeons!

Some musings on Falkovnia:

I agree that Falkovnia might have a good secret police network.
Prussia!


I prefer to think of the Falkovnia as a warlord's state, but not as a totalitarian-ideological state. Authoritarian, but not totalitarian. Think of Prussia in the Early Modern period, but with a Vlad the Impaler replacing Frederick the Great and with a less sophisticated technological base.
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Re: Drakov and seige engines

Post by Scipion_Emilien »

HuManBing wrote:Again, this depends on how you use Drakov for your campaign. If he's a whimsical homicidal maniac, then maybe his intelligence service isn't up to par. But if he's a shrewd leader and reasonably innovative thinker, then there's no reason Falkovnian intelligence is any worse than other nations.
Well, I agree it's debatable, but at the intell level I can see some advantages for the 4 towers countries.

[*]Borca, Dementlieu and Richemulot live on intrigue. Those people are literally born on intrigue and "know the game".
[*]Cash, the 4 towers countries just have what it take to do bribes, and the people who know how to present them.
[*]The autoritarian nature of the Falkovnia play against internal security. People are more likely to stab a harsh master than one that treat them well. Or in the case of Ravenloft, stab a really harsh master for a less harsher one.
[*]The mythic, for a Falkovnian, Richemulot and Dementlieu must seem to be a dream place. Sure they all heard all theses bad things about those country, yet when they see one of their citizen, they are in rich clothes, articulate and with good manners.

The culture of those countries just have that attraction that make it even more interesting when someone propose to bribe you and allow to defect after.
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Re: Drakov and seige engines

Post by ewancummins »

Are the Four Towers nations funding or otherwise helping the rebels and kobolds in Falkovnia?
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

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Re: Drakov and seige engines

Post by HuManBing »

Scipion_Emilien wrote:Well, I agree it's debatable, but at the intell level I can see some advantages for the 4 towers countries.

[*]The autoritarian nature of the Falkovnia play against internal security. People are more likely to stab a harsh master than one that treat them well. Or in the case of Ravenloft, stab a really harsh master for a less harsher one.
This is definitely a valid point, but balance that against the opportunity to do so. A significant portion of Falkovnian citizens probably hate their rulership and want to work against it... but if the state is as oppressive and totalitarian as the Gazetteers make it out to be, its security apparatus may make it impossible for a citizen to effectively act on that desire. Put crudely, if I hold your children captive and threaten to hurt them, you will likely hate me and want to do me harm. But you won't be able to, because I've got enough of a threat against you to prevent you from acting on your desires.
[*]The mythic, for a Falkovnian, Richemulot and Dementlieu must seem to be a dream place. Sure they all heard all theses bad things about those country, yet when they see one of their citizen, they are in rich clothes, articulate and with good manners.

The culture of those countries just have that attraction that make it even more interesting when someone propose to bribe you and allow to defect after.
Again, a valid point. But how many standard poor Falkovnians see the mythical rich Richemuloise? How many North Korean peasants have seen how Americans and Europeans live? You are correct that this sort of knowledge would greatly destabilize Drakov's power base, but in order to arrive at your conclusion, you must also rely on an assumption that Drakov cannot effectively restrict this knowledge.

That's fine, if that's the sort of campaign you want to run (after all, it's what led to the collapse of East Germany and eventually the Soviet Union), but bear in mind that the opposite assumption is perfectly valid too. Totalitarian governments can and do exercise profound control over public opinion and knowledge, and examples still exist today of regimes that have effectively solved the knowledge leak problem among their general citizenry. Mainland China's communist government still exercises considerable control internally over the political discourse, although it has relaxed controls over most non-political discussion (it still polices speech considered to be pornographic or violent). North Korea's Stalinist government has effectively absolute control over internal discourse of all topics, to the point where the general citizenry receives almost all of its public discourse from the government directly. Even the extinct Soviet and East German governments held power for decades before their eventual downfall.

When you factor in a pre-Industrial society without electronic communications, or arguably even a pre-printing-press society where the populace is mostly illiterate, then controlling the public discourse is even easier. From a sociological standpoint, this imbalance of access-to-information in pre-literate eras may have been the strongest single contributing factor to the relatively long period of effective despotism in human social history.

Even in today's modern world, where most nations are democratic to some degree (largely thanks to information availability), once the shooting starts, the first noncombat target is usually the communications and media infrastructure. NATO forces in Serbia and the Coalition forces in IraqII both targeted the opposing regime's TV stations and media centers as a key goal in removing their ability to coordinate their populace - as important as neutralizing enemy weapons and soldiers. If Drakov in your campaign is a canny soldier but a basically incompetent ruler, then maybe he might neglect this crucial dimension of national security. But if Drakov in your campaign is a canny soldier and a remotely self-interested ruler, then even a shred of competence would enable him fairly profound control over his nation, given the apparatus he already controls.

By actual canon text, he's already got a cowed populace, virtually no open opposition, and enforcers who are powerful enough to inflict public atrocities without fear of retaliation. I'd say these elements already put him well ahead in the basic elements of an effective police informant state.
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