Comments on the 4th Ed fact thread

[Jester of the FoS]

I thought the main reason to remove the saves was so that you could roll once for the power of the fireball and check to see which Reflex you beat!

No, it was to remove having the target make the roll to see if your attack had any effect.
And removing the overlap between ranged attack, ranged touch attack and reflex save.

I respectfully disagree. The main reason it was to avoid situations like Widened fireball. 17 targets. Go roll 17 saves.

How often does that ever come up? 3.5 was always a game of 3-6 PCs against 1-3 opponents.

[Sorti]

3.5 was always a game of 3-6 PCs against 1-3 opponents.

Not necessarily, obviously. Just yesterday I played with 6 PCs (us) against 10 opponents... It took looong time

[Jester of the FoS]

3.5 was always a game of 3-6 PCs against 1-3 opponents.

Not necessarily, obviously. Just yesterday I played with 6 PCs (us) against 10 opponents... It took looong time

But the EL system isn't as well set-up for encounters like that. Tends to be a bit hit-and-miss.

And alhoon is forgetting the other bonus of switching to attacks for magic missile and fireball. Critical hits!
As for attacking multiple creatures in a single square or burst, I'd assume it'd just be a single attack role.

3rd part of the Ain't it Cool Review is up:
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35811

[Rotipher of the FoS]

As for attacking multiple creatures in a single square or burst, I'd assume it'd just be a single attack role.

Either that, or the re-engineering of the rules for building encounters will take the "PCs vs. horde" scenario into account somehow. Based on some of the podcasts, and even the Tiefling/Gnome cartoon, I'm sure there will be a special "minion" role alloted to individually-weak monsters. It could be that they'll have a game mechanic to cut down on dice-rolling for area attacks against large numbers of wimpy targets (e.g. "For every point by which your spell's attack roll beats the minions' Reflex AC, one minion is affected.")

[Jester of the FoS]

Read the third review in my post. Mentions minions specifically.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Exactly. If the only time you'll confront large numbers of opponents is when they're minions, then it's only minions for which they'd need a special mechanic. For standard, elite, or solo monsters, the opposition won't outnumber the PCs, so you don't have to worry about the too-many-die-rolls problem with them: for them, separate rolls for each target should be fine.

That's assuming a normally-built encounter, of course. If PCs get a horde of non-minions riled up against them -- i.e. monsters that are tough enough to fight PCs one-on-one or one-on-many -- the sensible course of action is to run, not fight.

[alhoon]

About The monsters revealed
Balanced my undead tentacles... According to the rules a party of 5 1st level PCs can take out a 10th level monster as an encounter. Yeah, right... look at the Chuul. If you think that 5 of the 6 first level chars we have seen can take it down, take short breath take out another and another and totally six of them in an adventure tell me.

NOTE: I don't find that bad BTW. I just don't think the XP rules are the single inclination of what can be done and what not.
5 1st level monsters=500 XP. 1 10th level one = 500 XP. No, they are not as difficult!

Question: Can someone that has a lot of friends do the following for me please?
Get 5 of the 6 1st level chars and use them against 2 skeleton warriors and 1 boneshard skeleton and post his/her thoughts about balance etc here.
According to the rules, 5 1st level chars can defeat: 2 skeleton warriors and one boneshard skeleton. It's a normal encounter for them. Also the skeleton warriors are considered soldiers and the boneshard is considered brute, so it would be a good battle tactically.

NOTE 2: Doing some math I came up with this: Soldiers (be them undead or aberrations) get 8hp+8x lvl +con
Brutes: 10hp +10x lvl+con
Skirmishers/leaders/artillery: 6hp +6x lvl +con
Elites get double that... If that's the trend then solo's will have quadraple that.

Endpoint: Red Dragons are brutes... and solo.
Assume 20th level red dragon with 25 con: 940 hp

[alhoon]

A big thank you To Rotipher for the locked fact thread. There are so many rumors circulating now after the D&D Experience. It's like a dam broke and tidbits of info are flooding the place. Good, solid info that you can comprehend is getting harder and harder to find... except in Roti's thread.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

A big thank you To Rotipher for the locked fact thread. There are so many rumors circulating now after the D&D Experience. It's like a dam broke and tidbits of info are flooding the place. Good, solid info that you can comprehend is getting harder and harder to find... except in Roti's thread.

Hey, Joel's the one who started the thread. I've just fallen into the habit of posting stuff to it more than the other mods, that's all. (Probably because nobody ever comes to my office hours, so I might as well web-surf.)

[Jester of the FoS]

About The monsters revealed
Balanced my undead tentacles... According to the rules a party of 5 1st level PCs can take out a 10th level monster as an encounter. Yeah, right... look at the Chuul. If you think that 5 of the 6 first level chars we have seen can take it down, take short breath take out another and another and totally six of them in an adventure tell me.

NOTE: I don't find that bad BTW. I just don't think the XP rules are the single inclination of what can be done and what not.
5 1st level monsters=500 XP. 1 10th level one = 500 XP. No, they are not as difficult!

Assuming monsters are coming on a 1-to-1 PC ratio. I think its closer to 4:5. And we don't know how much xp a 1st level encounter is. More than likely it's 300 or 400 so the chull is still a tad powerful.

[alhoon]

We know: it's 1 on 1 according to the podcast. 1st level monster = 100 XP according to the playtesters. 4 1st level monsters = 400XP
So as the rules are 5 1st level chars should be able to take down the Chuul...

except If the playtester you mentioned is wrong about 1st level monsters. In the podcast we learn that a 7th level monster is 350 XP while he mentioned it's 300XP. It won't suprise me if a 1st level monster is actually 75 XP instead of 100. Look at those skeleton warriors. A party of 3 1st level chars should be able to take them down easily, although they seem a bit tougher than this. They probably need 4 lvl 1 chars.

I.e the 1st level encounter is 75XP/character and not 100.
If you take that into account, the system seems stable for up to 1-2 lvls more than the chars, mostly stable for 3-5lvls.
OK 9 levels more than the chars and it breaks. Not a suprise.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Most likely, there'll be a formula to apply, based on how tough of an encounter the DM wants to build. 75 xp per PC level might constitute an average encounter, 100 xp/level, a challenging one, and 50 xp/level, a lightweight one.

[alhoon]

Far easier that than trying to adjust with CRs, isn't it? Yes, I prefer the XP/monster thing.

[Jester of the FoS]

We know: it's 1 on 1 according to the podcast. 1st level monster = 100 XP according to the playtesters. 4 1st level monsters = 400XP
So as the rules are 5 1st level chars should be able to take down the Chuul...

And how it works is each encounter has a set xp limit you can apply monsters towards. They give the example of a 7th level party being 1200xp, so for them a solid fight would be two chulls and a two level one monsters.
Assuming the message board post listing a chull's xp was accurate.

So IF a first level encounter is 500xp then, yes, a chull fight is even. But 500xp seems a tad high for a level 1 encounter. And I can imagine level 1 heroes fighting only a couple level 1 baddies or lots of minions.

But there's an easy way to test. Pull out the chull. Pull out five demo pcs. Play through the fight. See what happens.

[Lord Soth]

Hmm.

Chuul, Level 10 Soldier (XP 500)
Large aberrant magical beast (aquatic)
Initiative +10; Senses Perception +9; darkvision
HP 109; Bloodied 54
AC 27; Fortitude 26, Reflex 20, Will 21
Speed 6, swim 6
m Claw (standard; at-will)
Reach 2; +17 vs. AC; 1d6+6 damage, or 3d6+6 damage against an immobilized creature
M Double Attack (standard; at-will) * Paralysis, Poison
The chuul makes two claw attacks. If both attacks hit a single target, the chuul makes a secondary attack against the same target with its tentacles. Secondary Attack: +14 vs. Fortitude; the target is immobilized (save ends)
Tentacle Net * Paralysis, Poison
A creature hit by a chuul's opportunity attack is immobilized until the end of the chuul's next turn.
Alignment Unaligned; Languages Deep Speech
Str 22 (+11) Dex 16 (+8) Wis 18 (+9)
Con 21 (+10) Int 4 (+2) Cha 14 (+7)

Chull Vs. Erais, Skarnos, Corrin, Riardon, and Kathra.

The PC's are marching in two colums with three ranks. Corrin and Kathra up front, followed by Riardon and Erais, with Skarnos taking up the rear. They spot the Chuul, and the Chuul sees them. They're 30 feet apart.

ROUND 1: FIGHT!

Everyone rolls for initiative. The initiative order is as follows:

22 Skarnos
21 Chuul
15 Kathra
12 Erais
11 Riardon
05 Corrin

22 Skarnos: Yeah, they're not about to play around with a Level 10 creature. So Skarnos starts off with his Per Day Sleep spell. He needs to beat a 21 against the Chuul's Will Defense. He rolls a 4 and fails. The Chuul isn't put to sleep, but it is slowed.

21 Chuul: The Chuul charges forward four squares (two squares for being slowed plus two for charging). That puts it two squares away from Kathra and Corrin. It has Reach 2 so it can attack. Kathra looks meaty so the Chuul attacks her, first. +2 to hit for Combat Advantage (Kathra hasn't acted yet. 4E equivalent of Flat-Footed). No idea if charging adds anything, so I'm going to guess no. The Chuul makes one claw attack (What I assume to be its base attack. Can't do more when charging). +17 Vs. AC hits easy with a 29, total. Kathra takes 7 damage (down to 26).

15 Kathra: Kathra moves two squares and is now base-to-base with the Chuul. Like Skarnos, Kathra's also going to go for the Per Day ability, and hits the Chuul with Brute Strike. She only hits on a 20 and, surprise, surprise, surprise, she hits! Kathra scores a critical hit on the Chull and does max damage, for a grand total of 35 points of damage (The Chuul's reduced to 74).

12 Erais: Feeling pretty inspired by Kathra's performance, Erais unleashes a Cascade of Light on the Chuul. +4 Vs. Will, so he needs a 17. He fails, but it's a Per Day ability, so it still has some effect. Erais inflicts 10 points of damage on the Chuul (Down to 64).

11 Riardon: Using a Minor Action, Riardon designates the Chuul his quarry. He then uses his Careful Attack for a total +10 to hit, and rolls a 24, total. Unfortunately, the Chuul has an AC of 27 and he misses.

05 Corrin: Corrin moves up to squares and is also in base-to-base contact with the Chuul. Using a Minor Action, he marks the Chuul, using his Divine Challenge ability on it. He then tries to hit the Chuul with a Holy Strike, but rolls a 10 and misses.

ROUND 2

22 Skarnos: He's used up his Per Day spell, Skarnos decides to cast his Per Encounter spell, Force Orb. He rolls a 17 and hits, inflicting 14 damage on the Chuul, reducing it to 50 Hit Points. The Chuul is now Bloodied.

21 Chuul: The Chuul's been marked by the Paladin, so it doesn't really have any other choice but to attack Corrin. Time for some payback, you little Halfling bastard! The Chuul makes two claw attacks on Corrin, easily hitting both times, and does 21 damage on him (leaving him with 6 Hit Points). Because both claw attacks hit, it makes a secondary attack with its tentacles and they also hit, and immobilize Corrin. No escape, punk! The Chuul then fails his saving throw, leaving his Slowed for another round.

15 Kathra: Kathra thinks she's hot stuff after last rounds awesome critical hit, and tries to use Tide of Iron to push the Chuul back away from Corrin. Sadly, she misses this round (Even after rolling a 24).

12 Erais: Seeing that Corrin's in trouble, Erais casts Healing Word as a Minor Action, and Corrin is healed for 16 (up to 22). With a Free Action, Erais then uses Channel Divinity: Power of Amaunator, and with a Standard Action, casts Sacred Flame. Wasted effort, though, as he rolls a 9 and misses.

11 Riardon: Riardon makes another Careful Attack, but misses yet again, rolling 26 to hit when he needed a 27.

05 Corrin: Immobilized but still able to fight, Corrin uses Channel Divinity: Divine Strength and then unleashes his Shielding Smite... and rolls a 2. Oh well. At least he still gets the +3 AC bonus, which he applies to himself.

ROUND 3
22 Skarnos: His most impressive spells gone, Skarnos decides to opt for a Magic Missile but misses. Failing despite a bonus to hit due to his Bloodhunt ability.

21 Chuul: The Chuul's hungry, and it's got Halfling on the mind. It hits easily with both claw attacks, even with the +3 AC bonus that Corrin received due to Shielding Smite. And because Corrin's immobilized, the Chuul does 3d6+6 with each claw attack. The Chuul inflicts 36 points of damage on Corrin, reducing him to -14! Corrin's dead. Invigorated by the taste of the Halfling's blood, the Chuul makes his saving throw and is no longer slowed.

15 Kathra: Shocked by Corrin's death, Kathra attempts to unleash another Tide of Iron attack, but misses yet again.

12 Erais: Erais casts Cause Fear on the Chuul, but the Chuul's mind is to strong for the spell.

11 Riardon: Riardon misses miserably with his next shot, his aim spoiled by the shock of the death of his friend.

ROUND 4
22 Skarnos: Skarnos unleashes another Magic Missile, but misses yet again.

21 Chuul: The Chuul turns its attention to Kathra and unleashes a double attack on her. Scoring two hits, the Chuul inflicts 20 points of damage on her, reducing her to 6. The Chuul follows up with its tentacles and immobilizes her.

15 Kathra: Time to start burning Action Points. First Kathra uses Second Wind as a Minor Action and gets 8 Hit Points back from a Healing Surge, putting her at 14. She attacks twice thanks to her Action Point, but needs a 20 to hit. She fails both times.

12 Erais: He's got one use of Healing Word left, so he uses it on Kathra. She gains 15 Hit Points, putting her up to 29. He then unleashes a Lance of Faith on the Chuul and hits! The Chuul takes 11 points of damage, knocking it down to 39, and Erais now has a +2 attack bonus against the Chuul next round.

11 Riardon: He fires and misses again, despite his +10 bonus. Using an Action Point, he takes another shot. A little closer this time, but still a miss.

ROUND 5
22 Skarnos: Unleashes another Magic Missile, and fails miserably yet again to connect. Skarnos uses up an Action Point and tries again, but rolls a 19. Just shy of the 20 needed to hit.

21 Chuul: Targets Kathra with two claw attacks, again. The Chuul rolls two 2's, but because it has +17 to attack, it still hits! Kathra is immobilized, so the Chuul inflicts 3d6+6 with each claw. 31 points of damage later, Kathra is at -2 and unconscious. Sadly, Erais is out of Healing Words and Corrin is dead...

15 Kathra: Stabilizes.

12 Erais: He fires off another Lance of Faith, and for the second round in a row, rolls a 19 to hit. He inflicts 5 points of damage, reducing the Chuul to 34. He gets another +2 attack bonus the following round.

11 Riardon: Riardon makes another Careful Attack and FINALLY lands a hit, rolling a 17! He inflicts 1d10+4+1d8 damage (for Hunter's Quarry). Would you believe he rolled max, to boot? 22 points of damage! The Chuul is down to 12.

ROUND 5
22 Skarnos: Skarnos fires off another Magic Missile and, perhaps inspired by the performance of Erais and Riardon, scores a hit this time! He inflicts 7 damage on the Chuul, reducing it to 5 hit points.

21 Chuul: Yeah, the Chuul's pretty pissed. Stepping over Kathra's unconscious body, it gets base-to-base with Riardon and Erais. It makes two claw attacks against Erais and easily hits both times, and follows that up with a tentacle attack that immobilizes him. Erais takes 20 points of damage, and is down to 4 Hit Points.

15 Kathra: Unconscious. Don't remember how recovery works, and don't feel like looking it up right now.

12 Erais: He could use a Second Wind and get 6 Hit Points back, but Erais is going to take a chance and try to finish the Chuul off. Sadly, even with the +2 bonus from his last successful attack, he only manages a 16 against the Chuul's Reflex Defense of 20 with his Lance of Faith.

11 Riardon: Using a Move Action, Riardon makes a Fey Step and moves back 5 squares, away from the Chuul, and fires his bow. But once again, Riardon rolls a 16, and falls short of finishing off the Chuul.

ROUND 6
22 Skarnos: Skarnos is definitely feeling the heat, as Erais is pretty much dead unless he finishes the Chuul now. Casting another Magic Missile, Skarnos rolls a 13 Vs. the Chuul's Reflex Defense. +5 makes it 18, and +1 for the Chuul being Bloodied makes it 19. Skarnos, however, needed a 20 and so misses.

21 Chuul: Time for another snack! The Chuul makes one claw attack against Erais, hitting him easily, and inflicting 13 points of damage on him. He's knocked unconscious with -9 Hit Points. With his second claw attack, and thanks to his Reach of 2, the Chuul also attacks Skarnos. Skarnos is knocked down to 8 Hit Points.

15 Kathra: Unconscious.

12 Erais: Unconscious.

11 Riardon: Riardon draws his bow, and in true elf fashion, he fails miserably yet again. You SUCK, Riardon!

ROUND 7
22 Skarnos: Time for the Tiefling to show everyone why he rules. Skarnos casts another Magic Missile and rolls a 17, scoring a hit! The Chuul takes 11 points of damage, reducing it to -6 and killing it.

Damn near ended up a TPK if not for a couple lucky rolls (Like Kathra scoring a crit with her most powerful attack, or Riardon rolling max damage on his one hit). And even then, one of the PC's died, and more would've died had the Chuul stopped to Coup-de-Grace them (Could've killed Erais, at least, if the Chuul had attacked him again rather then go for Skarnos). And of course, things would've been VERY different if the PC's had used up their Per Day powers in earlier fights.