Comments on the 4th Ed fact thread

[alhoon]

Drow descend from the elves Bluebomber. It is there in the history of the fey races. The Eladrin, Elves and the Drow.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

I don't remember if "tainted" is the exact word they used in Races & Classes, but the general gist of it is that gnomes will have a darker feel to them.

Ah. Well, considering how most gnomes in previous editions had been portrayed as bad comedians and/or zany inventors ( ), "darker" doesn't necessarily have to indicate they've become die-hard demon worshippers. Just being taken seriously for once would be enough to rate as "dark", by comparison.

[Jester of the FoS]

I think the gnome "taint" was only one of the ideas they kicked around. But I can see the gnomes having a tie to the shadowfall, as they'll likely be illusionists w/ the shadow power source.

As for changing the fluff... I feel better about this now I'm used to it. The fluff had otherwise been unchanged since the original game so every time you bought a new edition you were re-reading the same rough (Greyhawk) fluff.
It invalidates all old fluff books because it's all changed so you'll need to buy the new DMG or Manual of the Planes to really see the new cosmology.

I mean, considering the fluff is fairly different between worlds anyway, it's not a huge deal.

[Bluebomber4evr]

I think the gnome "taint" was only one of the ideas they kicked around. But I can see the gnomes having a tie to the shadowfall, as they'll likely be illusionists w/ the shadow power source.

As for changing the fluff... I feel better about this now I'm used to it. The fluff had otherwise been unchanged since the original game so every time you bought a new edition you were re-reading the same rough (Greyhawk) fluff.
It invalidates all old fluff books because it's all changed so you'll need to buy the new DMG or Manual of the Planes to really see the new cosmology.

I mean, considering the fluff is fairly different between worlds anyway, it's not a huge deal.

Yes and no...there's a difference between drow in say, Eberron vs. Forgotten Realms, but they're still drow. The succubus, for example, is now a devil in 4e when it had always been a demon before. If all the old campaign settings are released in 4e without the fluff changes (like if Greyhawk was released with traditional devils instead of these new "fallen angels" and succubi are still demons) then I'd be fine with it, but I have a feeling that all of the settings will be forced to adapt to these new fluff changes.

Thankfully it wouldn't affect Ravenloft all that much. But if I were running a Planescape campaign I'd be seriously ticked off.

[Jester of the FoS]

Planescape, like a lot of older campain settings really did a great job of taking kookiness and arbitrary rules and explaining anf justifying them.
But I don't think designers have to be constrained in their ideas by a campaign setting that hasn't seen an official product release in almost a decade.

Huge planescape fans are going to ignore any change in the fluff, large or small, so why work hard to accommodate them?

[alhoon]

Remember: 3rd edition is still out and you will be able to buy it from DrivethruRPG etc for years to come.

You now know what it will be. No more fear that a new 3rd edition book will change things for your campaign by introducing something so cool that you can't leave out but it changes your campaign world.
The 3rd edition is complete not outdated. With all its shortcomings, 3rd edition is a very nice system with a lot of thought in it.

You know what feats are available for your characters, what spells, which rules. You have the security that you own a collection of books that won't be outdated if you keep in that edition.
When I first saw the PHB feat list in 1998 I said: "wow! How many choices!" In 2005 It seemed increadibly short and incomplete.

4th edition will be fast and with better mechanics, but it will be incomplete for the first years. Then as Jester said we will have many books that would either be unbalanced or just won't work very well. Later we'll have books that expand on already overexpanded topic.

For 3rd edition, all this is over. Read the reviews or ask around for people who have the book you want to buy. Was it good? Did it work for them? Was it worth the money?

[Ail]

Remember: 3rd edition is still out and you will be able to buy it from DrivethruRPG etc for years to come.

You now know what it will be. No more fear that a new 3rd edition book will change things for your campaign by introducing something so cool that you can't leave out but it changes your campaign world.
The 3rd edition is complete not outdated. With all its shortcomings, 3rd edition is a very nice system with a lot of thought in it.

You know what feats are available for your characters, what spells, which rules. You have the security that you own a collection of books that won't be outdated if you keep in that edition.
When I first saw the PHB feat list in 1998 I said: "wow! How many choices!" In 2005 It seemed increadibly short and incomplete.

4th edition will be fast and with better mechanics, but it will be incomplete for the first years. Then as Jester said we will have many books that would either be unbalanced or just won't work very well. Later we'll have books that expand on already overexpanded topic.

For 3rd edition, all this is over. Read the reviews or ask around for people who have the book you want to buy. Was it good? Did it work for them? Was it worth the money?

This is more or less why I was happy with Ravenloft not being published anymore before Arthaus took it *grin*.

Alex

[Bluebomber4evr]

Planescape, like a lot of older campain settings really did a great job of taking kookiness and arbitrary rules and explaining anf justifying them.
But I don't think designers have to be constrained in their ideas by a campaign setting that hasn't seen an official product release in almost a decade.

Huge planescape fans are going to ignore any change in the fluff, large or small, so why work hard to accommodate them?

They don't need to accomodate them, but they don't need to alienate them, either.

[DocBeard]

They don't need to accomodate them, but they don't need to alienate them, either.

In my experience, there's no way not to alienate a hardcore fan of just about anything, unless what you're doing is letting them write it.

[Jester of the FoS]

Agreed.
But for the sake of argument, how would you simplify the planes from the current state, almost unchanged since the '70s, without doing anything that would alter Planescape in any way shape or form.

Keep in mind the current change reduces the number of planes to 3: regular world, elemental tempest, and astral plus the various sub-planes and mirror worlds.

[steveflam]

Agreed.
But for the sake of argument, how would you simplify the planes from the current state, almost unchanged since the '70s, without doing anything that would alter Planescape in any way shape or form.

Keep in mind the current change reduces the number of planes to 3: regular world, elemental tempest, and astral plus the various sub-planes and mirror worlds.

Er what is wrong with the Planescape box set of the 2nd edition and all its supplelemts? I know this is a 4th edition thread but that was pretty complete about the planes IMO.

[Jester of the FoS]

Name all the planes off the top of your head.

That's the biggest problem. There's so many and there's too damn many that overlap. Sure, Planescape fans can rattle off all of them and probably the key layers, but they're the exception. That's like Ravenloft fans rattling off domains.

Planescape and the Manual of the Planes worked darn hard to make them all different and unique but there's too many and several are just one-shot Island-of-Terror-esque places.
They took the nine alignments (which they're dropping for 4E anyway) and then added another 8 for a solid 17 planes (IIRC) in addition to planes having a myriad layers.
Say you want to do a quick planar trip, possibly the result of spell error. How do you do that? You have to crack open the book and look. It's not automatic or intuitive, each plane is very specialized. If you improv or pull something out of your hat at the table anyone who knows anything is going to call you on it or know you're making it up as you go.

Really, you need a heaven and a hell, a place for demons, angels, and gods plus someplace for elementals and a final place to power undead.

[Jester of the FoS]

Here's a way to look at it: they've taken the Great Wheel and dropped it. All the pie-like sections went off their own way in the Astral Sea, except the Abyss.
The elemental planes were made a single one including all the quasi-elemental and para-elemental and psudo-elemental. All a single place. With the Abyss smack dab in the middle.

So instead of this giant, set wheel where you can't add new planes or customize you have an infinite sea full of the realms of Gods and powerful beings where you can add, and remove and customize the multiverse to your heart's content.

[steveflam]

Here's a way to look at it: they've taken the Great Wheel and dropped it. All the pie-like sections went off their own way in the Astral Sea, except the Abyss.
The elemental planes were made a single one including all the quasi-elemental and para-elemental and psudo-elemental. All a single place. With the Abyss smack dab in the middle.

So instead of this giant, set wheel where you can't add new planes or customize you have an infinite sea full of the realms of Gods and powerful beings where you can add, and remove and customize the multiverse to your heart's content.

If you look at it that way I guess it does make sense

[alhoon]

From the wolds and monsters preview
About Dragons: I'm neutral. They seem far more interesting than the pit fiend at least.

Feywild: So and so. Yes it is a nice place, with concept and all (positive).
Why couldn't they include something like the shadow fey for the feywild underdark? ! ? Are they so difficult to imagine or conceive?
Question: Can you get there through a closet?

Demons and devils: Wow, half a page to explain why the Succubus became a devil. They really didn't make the change with a light heart.
I agree on the demons take. Finally they are stated as "not empire builders". At most they gather in hordes and lay waste.

About the yugoloths, I'm a bit disappointed. Yugo-demons? What's so wrong with the name "Mezzoloth" that it needed to be changed to "Mezzodemon"? I also don't agree with the concept of the demon-mercenary.
No "Neutral evil plane"? So? Throw them in the astral! It's a big place.