Tail, Wing, Fang and Claw

Discussing all things Ravenloft
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Vorpal Dragon
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Tail, Wing, Fang and Claw

Post by Vorpal Dragon »

Does any of the Ravenloft books or role playing material, commercial or fan made ever mention, directly or indirectly, a Dragon?

... I can't say that I have noticed (, but having only read some of the 3rd ed materials that doesn't say much) save on the Denziens of Dread (and I'll assume Denizens of Darkness?) where they give a brief idea of how to use them.

I have noticed Dragons on a fair amount of Gothic art and I think they are quite iconic. At least in my role playing group they are something to be feared... my players have never bested one of these beasts and usually resort to such such tactics as move to another county.. NOW! :twisted:

I suspect part of that is due to the rarity of the creatures - I would play them as a major encounter, if an encounter at all (rarely heard and nearly never encountered).

Has anyone made any good uses of Dragons in Ravenloft? Any good ideas or suggestions?
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Post by Joël of the FoS »

There are few in canon / serious writing:

- a Tarnished Dragon from the Forgotten Children netbook
- According to Elena Faithhold, there is a red dragon devasting parts of her land (Nidalia)
- Strahd had a red dragon in his castle (killed by Soth in KotBR) (but could be back as a dracolich)
- another dreamlike dragon in Forgotten Terror
- and of course there is Ebb, Azalin’s shadow dragon, with his mate (Darkon) (Gaz 2)

But in a low magic, low fantasy setting, I would recommend their use to be very rare, if ever used. Dragons do not really belong in RL, but one or two wouldn't hurt, especially if they were confined to one cluster or domain. Just for use on those special occasions when you want to return to the good old 'basic fantasy' standard villains.

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Post by ScS of the Fraternity »

Indeed, dragons may be iconic creatures, but not the way D&D presents them. Dragons of Western lore were huge lizards with human intelligence at best. D&D dragons, however, are extremly intelligent, highly magical creatures.

As well, I'd just liek to add onto Joels post- Strahd mentioned that his red dragon could eb replaced -which might indicate a number of dragons in Strahd's thrall.
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

Actually, the "dragon" which Lord Soth confronted in Strahd's castle may not have been the genuine article. In the original I6 module, four dragons *statues* in Castle Ravenloft could come to life as (small) red dragons to attack intruders. Given the rarity of such beasts, Strahd's replacable "dragons" might make more sense as golems or oversized Figurines Of Wondrous Power than as true dragons; in the "House Of Strahd" 2E module update, they were replaced with gargoyle golems, IIRC.

The "dragon" that Elena Faith-hold claims to protect her people against is, in fact, Elena herself. She warns Nidalans that she's the only thing which prevents the (nonexistent) dragon from devastating their lands as part of her propaganda ... then razes villages which fail to live up to her fanatical standards of righteous behavior, while blaming their destruction on "the dragon". [Of course, IYC you might rule that the Dark Powers have since planted a REAL dragon in her domain, to make her life miserable.... ;-)]

In general, for dragons to play a role in a Ravenloft campaign, it's best to ignore all the conventional D&D ideas about dragons (like their social structure, their pantheon, etc), and revert to the classic Euro-archetype of the dragon as a symbolic embodiment of greed (Fafnir; Smaug) and evil (St. George's dragon; the Beast of Revelations). Play a Ravenloft dragon like you'd play a fiend, without any redeeming qualities to humanize it, and it'll fit into its own thematic niche, just as the more traditional Gothic monsters do (e.g. vampire as seducer, mummy as implacable avenger, etc).

I remember one of the examples from the 2E "Complete Book of Villains", in which an evil dragon had established a cult of greed to serve it. It taught its followers to take, take, take, and to demonstrate their commitment to avarice by bringing the most generous, altruistic person they could find, and delivering them to the dragon to be devoured. In the end, one of the cultists became so greedy that he held back a single coin from the tribute the dragon demanded of its followers; spotting the discrepancy immediately, the dragon chastized the *other* cultists for failing to learn what it had taught them, praised the cheater for being an excellent student, then burned them all to death (and kept their treasure, of course).

*That* dragon, if it went on to found another such cult in another land, to bask in their gifts and chow down on their kidnapped offerings, and then to slaughter them all the moment one of their number worked up the nerve to cheat it -- and then another cult, and another, and... -- might just find itself right at home in Ravenloft. But a dragon that acts like just another NPC ... no way.
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Post by alhoon »

Well, it depends in what kind of Ravenloft game you want. I always liked dragons, my players liked dragons, so there are many dragons IMC. Greens and Blacks in Sithicus, Reds in Balinoks, Ebb and all kinds in Darkon, etc.

Canon Ravenloft dragons in Core are only Ebb. Strahd could very well be lying to Soth; it wouldn't be the first time. Also while KotBR is canon, no novel is as canon as the Gazs or published gamerules.

That doesn't mean that there aren't any, just that there are not mentioned.
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Post by brothersale »

if i remember correctly i think the Lonesome road, andrew wyatt's site, mentions a dragon in Ricoba (a revision of Richemulot).

I myself have used dragons in my last campaign, but with the following conditions (other than Ebb), the first is that they are smaller than those of Outlander dragons, the second was that they were constructs of the Mist representing pure natural fury and fear. Third was that often they were mentioned in tales and not encountered and that they often in the tales they were not defeated, instead mearly disapeared without trace leaving the dead in its wake, and the echo of their existance, (this is important because the Core could barely support one dragon without causing a famine, heck the place is tiny compared the area they normal would inhabit, in this respect my dragons didn't eat livestock, unless they wandered directly into their mouths, they usually killed things, much like a fox in a henhouse through). the final point was they were linked to certain terrains, green =woodland, black=swampland, red=volcano, blue=thunderstorms, and their names were changed to reflect that.
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Post by Dark Whisper »

I've used dragons - well, one up to now - IMC while the PCs were in Rokushima Taiyoo. But I didn't use the standart D&D MM dragons, but a slightly modified version of the 2nd edition MMII asiatic dragons (sic?).

I might use one or perhaps two (real) dragons somewhere during the campaign - although those would probably be dracoliches...
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Post by Drinnik Shoehorn »

Ebb is the only canon dragon. Gloom, her mate, is an optional extra.

Elena's dragon is fake. It's her excuse when a village is destroyed because of her rages.
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Post by Augustus »

I like to keep Dragons in RL as a danger that could strike at any moment such as having the PC's hear of villiages being depopulated suddenly and razed to the ground or commoners complaining about livestock disappearences or trade caravans never arriving. The odd breeze of sulphurous air or a large shadow engulfing the party will freak the PC's out. A dragon in RL is the paragon of greed and self-entitlement and nigh unstoppable.
I do think that the core could support some dragons because they can eat ANYTHING and still gain sustenance from it though I only see the wiser dragons trying to preserve their meat supply. I do however see a dragon leading a company in order to gain a larger treasure trove seeing as the traditional raiding wouldn't be as effective in RL.
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Post by Manofevil »

A dragon and a vampire or group of vampires could form a functioning partnership. The vampire(s) drain the victims and the dragon eats the corpses thereof.
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Re: Tail, Wing, Fang and Claw

Post by Jason of the Fraternity »

Vorpal Dragon wrote:Does any of the Ravenloft books or role playing material, commercial or fan made ever mention, directly or indirectly, a Dragon?
Concerning fan-made articles pertaining to dragons, we have the an article concerning a particular type of dragon in Ravenloft. You can find a copy in our library in Quoth the Raven #4 (pages 29-31); entitled Growls in the Night: Dread Wyrm... :twisted:
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Post by Steve Miller »

My most effective use of a dragon in Ravenloft didn't happen in Ravenloft at all.

I ran a campaign set exclusively in Sithicus--the borders were always up, so there was no going anywhere. At one point, I let the PCs "escape" to the Promised Land of Ansalon. After their first encounter with a dragon, they launched a quest to find a way back home to Sithicus. Dragons were just too damn scary, they decided. :D
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Vorpal Dragon
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Post by Vorpal Dragon »

ScS of the Fraternity:
Indeed, dragons may be iconic creatures, but not the way D&D presents them. Dragons of Western lore were huge lizards with human intelligence at best. D&D dragons, however, are extremly intelligent, highly magical creatures.
Can one blame WOTC in making their flagship creature the most powerful (by default, and ignoring Gods)? In Western Lore, I have not heard of one magical dragon, but what about other cultures? Did the Chinese and Japanese cultures have any such dragons? That I'm not sure about that.

I suspect Wizards of the Coast have combined all traditions to provide the True Dragons (of D&D) with a core set of similarities while allowing each one some room to have their differences.


Rotipher:
In general, for dragons to play a role in a Ravenloft campaign, it's best to ignore all the conventional D&D ideas about dragons (like their social structure, their pantheon, etc), and revert to the classic Euro-archetype of the dragon as a symbolic embodiment of greed (Fafnir; Smaug) and evil (St. George's dragon; the Beast of Revelations). Play a Ravenloft dragon like you'd play a fiend, without any redeeming qualities to humanize it, and it'll fit into its own thematic niche, just as the more traditional Gothic monsters do (e.g. vampire as seducer, mummy as implacable avenger, etc).
I know Smaug and the Saint George's Dragon. Is there a decent book on the legend of Saint George and the Dragon? Of Fafnir and the Beast of Revelations, are these alternative names for smaug and St. George's Dragon respectively, or are they separate?

That's an interesting way to think about portraying the Dragons... come to think of it. Why are the Metallic Dragons good-aligned? WOTC trying to keep Chromatic Dragons in check? Probably the same reason for Arch Liches (is that the right name? - for the good aligned ones).. because they can.


alhoon:
Well, it depends in what kind of Ravenloft game you want. I always liked dragons, my players liked dragons, so there are many dragons IMC. Greens and Blacks in Sithicus, Reds in Balinoks, Ebb and all kinds in Darkon, etc.
Agreed. I guess in most cases it is how you portray the Dragons that determines whether they are appropriate or not.
That doesn't mean that there aren't any, just that there are not mentioned.
I suspect no one has mentioned them probably because they were eaten. That's wild Dragons for you. :D
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Post by Vorpal Dragon »

I like the renaming the Dragons idea, brothersale.

I know some DMs have chosen to increase the size of each (or some) of the realms, as one of them argued that such technological innovations where slightly improbable with such small populations (or it went something like that at any rate). I know that means you loose some of the claustrophobic feel by doing that, but that would be one way to justify Dragons.

Though I would agree with Augustus that Ravenloft could support a few Dragons... and no one has said that they have too stay in the Core Domains :wink:. Perhaps there are a few islands of terror out there where the dragons seem to be able to find, feed from and terrorize for awhile.

Manofevil:
A dragon and a vampire or group of vampires could form a functioning partnership. The vampire(s) drain the victims and the dragon eats the corpses thereof.
Vampires and Dragons working together... could work, though I'm sure that the Dragon would demand a portion of the blood from the victims (otherwise the meat will be a little on the dry side - water is only going to help so much... - I am thinking about this far too much :P ).

Jason of the Fraternity:
Concerning fan-made articles pertaining to dragons, we have the an article concerning a particular type of dragon in Ravenloft. You can find a copy in our library in Quoth the Raven #4 (pages 29-31); entitled Growls in the Night: Dread Wyrm... Twisted Evil
Thanks for that, I'll give it a read.
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Post by Brandi »

Vorpal Dragon wrote:Why are the Metallic Dragons good-aligned? WOTC trying to keep Chromatic Dragons in check?
Oh, the metallic/chromatic dragon split LONG predates WotC's ownership; it started back with AD&D 1st edition back around '79-80, so you'd probably have to ask ol' Gygax...
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