VRGtWalking Dead

[Tobias Blackburn]

- Toben is an extension or creation of the DP's themselves.

Then why would being in Darkon frighten him so much?

He is more human than we think. He knows that he is undead and he knows the truth about Azalin and his ability to control undead. He has also determined the limits of his existence. He is NOT the bodies that he possesses. He is the ESSENCE and INTELLECT behind them their force of will. If Azalin ever tried to control Toben's host, he would eliminate Toben's control and therefore his existence from the land of the mists. Toben fears for his own self-preservation.

Also, the fact that he may be an extension of the DPs does not mean he knows about them.

I don't agree that Toben is an extension of the Dark Powers, but I don't agree that he's human in any way. He might be considered a humanoid intelligence at best. He exists only for his own enjoyment, to play his sick games regardless of the loss of innocent life. He desires nothing more than to while away eternity by increasing his collection, causing chaos and toying with those that can provide entertainment. I fail to see anything about him that is remotely human.

Adding a new domain isn't something to be taken lightly, and some player's feel that their characters are entitled to domains if they fall that far into corruption. As the DM, if I don't feel that the character warrents a domain, I can say no, even as the character becomes an NPC. If it gets bad, I can point to other villans, such as Toben, the Living Brain, or Natalia Vhorishkova. All are undisputably evil, but don't have domains.

Also remember that nothing is forcing you to send the character to Stage 6 of the Power's Check scale. The RL:DMG even suggests just keeping a character at stage 5 but not advancing it if it would be too much work or is too much of a hassle.

Right, but sometimes its handy to have ingame examples to quiet player whining. If the Dark Powers don't have a reason for bottling Toben, there's no way Chucky the Sneak Thief is becoming king of the loft.

[Stygian Inquirer]

Then why would being in Darkon frighten him so much?

He is more human than we think. He knows that he is undead and he knows the truth about Azalin and his ability to control undead. He has also determined the limits of his existence. He is NOT the bodies that he possesses. He is the ESSENCE and INTELLECT behind them their force of will. If Azalin ever tried to control Toben's host, he would eliminate Toben's control and therefore his existence from the land of the mists. Toben fears for his own self-preservation.

Also, the fact that he may be an extension of the DPs does not mean he knows about them.

I don't agree that Toben is an extension of the Dark Powers, but I don't agree that he's human in any way. He might be considered a humanoid intelligence at best. He exists only for his own enjoyment, to play his sick games regardless of the loss of innocent life. He desires nothing more than to while away eternity by increasing his collection, causing chaos and toying with those that can provide entertainment. I fail to see anything about him that is remotely human.

I don't agree that he is an extension of the DPs either. I was merely saying that IF he was, he would not know about them.

Also, I said he was humanish but maybe he has a humanoid intelligence with animalistic desires.

[Ivana_Boritsi]

The main thing is, I think, that every single evil villain in Ravenloft doesn't get a domain of their own. No matter how evil they are.

There are alot of example of folks who are begging for their own domains, but haven't gotten them. Jerza Wagner? Merilee? Inajira? Jacqualine Montarri? How about Sytrix, who's killed almost a hundred people to collect into her Rift Spanner? Aren't these folks evil, evil, evil to the core?

Besides, being a domain lord is not about being evil and vile it never has been, and it never will be. Look at the domain lords out there now. Many of them aren't very high on the evil scale. Adam, Nathan Timothy, and Dominic come to mind.

More importantly, there are plenty of more evil people out there. Iuz the Evil comes to mind. Where's his domain? Manshoon...Rary the Traitor...why aren't these folks in domains if they're so vile?

We have to keep in mind that nobody knows why a domain lord is appointed. Nobody.

P.S. As a metagaming answer, I think that Toben works better out of a domain, too. He's more of a suprise that way.

[Gemathustra]

Well, for one thing, Styrix and Inajira are evil outsiders, and are, by default, as evil as any given darklord, if not even moreso.

[alhoon]

I never said that I would prefer Toben as a Darklord. I'm against that every neat villain gains a domain. Toben is evil, irredeemably so, original as an evil character (Let's be frank, he is very different than agent Smith in Matrix) but as some people rightly pointed out:

He is not a tragic figure.

Strahd has Tatyana, Azalin has Irik, Ivana and Renieur have the loneliness. Even Death has Azalin. Toben is not like them. Darklords have some aspect perhaps their curse perhaps not that torments them and comes out of their character.

Yes, it would be a fitting curse for Toben to Pin him in a domain as large as Barovia with 10.000 people and let him able to only possess 101 bodies. Add to that tormenting hallucinations of his past victims and . . .
You have just another Darklord.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

All this talk of Inajira and Styrix inspired another thought to explain it:
Maybe the original Toben's an outsider?
His essence is so diluted at this point that his reality wrinkle is imperceptable, but it's enough that the DP's can't get a "lock" on him to chain him.

???

I dunno, there's only so much one can do here without just giving up and saying "because it's cooler that way"

[alhoon]

Interesting . . .
No need to search what the fiend's phylactery is.

[Tobias Blackburn]

I can see the PC's invoking a Mystikal Cage... And about three thousand Toben Zombies appear.

[alhoon]

I can see the PC's invoking a Mystikal Cage... And about three thousand Toben Zombies appear.

But for the Mystical cage to work, the PCs must have the phylactery, that is they need these 3000 Toben Zombies.

Now another question spawned out of this:

How many Tobens are there ?

IMC Toben works with about 8 - 10 cells of himself at a time and keeps about 5 - 6 cells hidden for security. As he is not a hungry dead, he doesn't need to sustain himself.

With the Term Cell I mean:
A concentration of Toben Zombies intent on a certain mischief or prank. Toben has as many zombies in a cell, as he believes are enough. For example if a certain lord strikes Toben's fancy and Toben decides to have all his household turned to Toben Zombies he will send there a few of his bodies (a cell of 2-3 bodies) and turn the house hold to a zombie madhouse. Now the madhouse-cell probably has 15 - 20 Toben zombies.

On the other hand, if Toben decided to swarm a whole village with 500 people in it, so that when his targets get there in a day or two they find every single villager as a Toben zombie, he would sent more than 100 bodies to do the job before the time is up. At the end, the village-of-death cell has more than 500 Toben Zombies.

When Toben finishes his prank with a cell, it breaks up to smaller cells of about 2-3 bodies and he looks for more pranks to do, or he just hungs there. He doesn't replentish bodies lost in cells that do not interest him any more. If adventurers hack him down, who cares?
This way Toben can perform about 4 - 5 pranks a day. He is smart and he can organise as many. But since he is chaotic and mad, he probably can't organise many more, so that's why IMC he keeps 8 - 10 cells: To be able to have fun without too much trouble or thought.

IMC the 5 - 6 "security" cells are hidden throughout the Core and have 3-4 Toben zombies each with at least CR 8. That is about 20 Toben zombies
The "prank cells" are 8 - 10 and have on average 150 Toben Zombies
Also there are about 4-6 cells at a time that spy for potentional pranks. These cells have 2-3 Toben's each. That is about 15 Toben Zombies

So Toben the Many has about 150 - 200 bodies at a time.

[Nathan of the FoS]

I can see the PC's invoking a Mystikal Cage... And about three thousand Toben Zombies appear.

But for the Mystical cage to work, the PCs must have the phylactery, that is they need these 3000 Toben Zombies.

Actually, if we go by the analogy with Marasmos (CotN: Fiends), you might only need one--if they're all equally his phylactery.

How many Tobens are there ?

One.

[Nathan of the FoS]

BTW, I think the DPs may reject Toben for darklordship because he's not tragic. Nearly all of the darklords desire to be something they're not (loved, human, not human, sane, etc.). Toben is happy (if that's the right word) being what he is. I don't think the Dark Powers are all that interested in happy people.

[alhoon]

How many Tobens are there ?

One.

Agreed.
How many Bodies does Toben occopies usually in your campaign?

BTW, I think the DPs may reject Toben for darklordship because he's not tragic.

Man, I like quoting myself!

He is not a tragic figure.

Strahd has Tatyana, Azalin has Irik, Ivana and Renieur have the loneliness. Even Death has Azalin. Toben is not like them. Darklords have some aspect perhaps their curse perhaps not that torments them and comes out of their character.

[Brandi]

Does Toben have any effective limit to how many bodies he can control? That's a disturbing prospect right there!

(Personally, I suspect he drops off some bodies when they become too decayed/damaged to be useful-- or, given his weirdly frivolous attitude, when they become boring.)

[alhoon]

(Personally, I suspect he drops off some bodies when they become too decayed/damaged to be useful-- or, given his weirdly frivolous attitude, when they become boring.)

I agree. Especially that he drops them when they become boring.