Thoughts on Ravenloft in another system?

[FavouredEnemy]

My own personal experience with d20 is that it is not a great roleplay system. Presumably, most of the people on this board think otherwise, I don't know. But what are people's thoughts on Ravenloft being run in a different system? Does anyone have another system that they think is good or better for Ravenloft than D&D or d20?

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

The Choasium system for Call of Cthulhu might work.

[Malus Black]

I've always thought that the Window would make a great system for Ravenloft. But really, d20 works for my group once you realize that the rules are there to help and not hinder the game.

[Reginald de Curry]

There's always Deadlands or Savage Worlds.

Or Rock, Paper, Scissors.

[Charney]

But really, d20 works for my group once you realize that the rules are there to help and not hinder the game.

THat's how I feel too. I also thinks the rules help players to actually roleplay a character instead of "playing themselves". For instance, I have a friend who's a good player except in some cases where he believes is character is as charismatic as him even if he's just a mage who spend his whole youth in a dusty tower. Yes, the player can make beautiful speeches worthy of a 20 on a diplomacy check, but not the character necesseraly.

[FavouredEnemy]

I've never actually played Chaosium/Call of Cthulhu - how does that work, and what is it that would make it work for Ravenloft?

I have found that d20 makes roleplay games far more game-y than roleplay-y. So yes, I agree that d20 rules help the 'game'. But I'd rather be roleplaying than gaming. As for that, yes, the Window might be quite a good system to play it in, but to date, I've not yet found an rp group who can make that last little leap from rolling dice.

What about Deadlands or Savage Worlds? What makes them appropriate for RL?

Personally, I feel that the 'RPS' system of roleplay lacks a little in the rules/setting and application department, but other than that, I think it's an excellent game. Lacks a bit for variety, and Rock is clearly overpowered, but it's still good. Probably not for RL though.

As for 'rules help players to actually roleplay a character instead of "playing themselves"' - well, that could really be said about any tabletop roleplay system. The problem with the roleplayer playing a more charismatic person than the character is a lack of roleplaying.

[Malus Black]

I have found that d20 makes roleplay games far more game-y than roleplay-y. So yes, I agree that d20 rules help the 'game'. But I'd rather be roleplaying than gaming.

I think you misunderstand what i mean with 'game.' I don't refer only to the dice-rolling part of it, but to the entire experience, which obviously includes roleplaying. What I meant when I said that the rules were there to help and not hinder the game is that the story and roleplaying should always be most important. D20 is a great system in that it has a very easy basis (d20 + ability score + relevant modifiers must beat target) as well as clear rules for most situations (it's the exceptions you've got to look out for). But the second the rules get in the way of the game, when you're reading through your player's handbook to find the exact wording of a rule instead of getting on with the story, when you say that the rules don't allow it if it would be perfect for the character, that's when you've gone wrong.

[FavouredEnemy]

The d20 mechanic of d20 + ability + various is not that simple. The 'various' category always, always has too many things in it. It's a well known joke that a good enough fighter in D&D can always find enough modifiers and actually hit. At worst, a story has to backtrack because the dwarf, after all, did pass his saving throw. At best, you're low level and the dice rolling aspect means there is far too much variance of effect. No, if D&D is to emulate 'heroics', the heroes have to do their heroic things with some reliability.

I've tried doing rules-lite D&D. Just not as good as a system that's designed for 'rules lite' roleplaying. I also don't like the 'heroic' aspect of D&D, and don't think it works well for Ravenloft. I'd rather have a system that can do more in detail the first five levels of D&D, since after that, you're pretty epic by real world standards.

Regardless, I've had the D&D argument many times. I'm still unsatisfied with it. It's an opinion, and those can never be changed by simple argument, only experience. My experience, in both running and playing D&D, is that it is not a good system for encouraging roleplay.

Aside from that, what systems do encourage roleplay, and how?

[Malus Black]

We agree to disagree, it seems

As for a system which actually encourages roleplaying, well, there's no such thing. Any system is just a means of telling your story and dealing with events and variables not directly within the players' control - the element of chance. As such, while a system can certainly detract from the roleplaying through clunky mechanics and pointless rules, it can't really encourage it - roleplaying is entirely up to the players. To use a (bad) analogy, it's like the difference between, say, reading a book and watching a movie - two entirely different things, but none of them any less suited to telling a good story than the other.

Now, if you're looking for a system for lower levels and low power, there are some. I mentioned the Window, but, as you said, not everyone is able to run a game with so few rules - mature players are a must.

The Storyteller system used by Vampire and Mage among others might also work, although I have little experience with it so I can't really comment too much on it. I believe there is a thread somewhere on this board discussing this very system in Ravenloft.

Call of Cthulhu's system, BRP, is a percentile-based system which stresses low hit points and high skills. Yet again, little experience with it. If, however, you're willing to make a compromise, there's Call of Cthulhu d20. It steps away from the heroic nature of D&D and makes it a lot deadlier as well as simplifying many of the intricate rules - attacks of opportunity, for example, are only an optional rule.

It's a well known joke that a good enough fighter in D&D can always find enough modifiers and actually hit.

As an aside, this might be a relvant read.