Queer Representation in Ravenloft

[The Dark]

It is a post in this forum from several decades ago... Apparently there was a line in a Gaz that was like "My sweet Arthur" that was edited out before shipping, and someone from the authors found out in the final product that it was cut.

Ryan Naylor brought it up in the author notes to Walking Dead.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Someone talked sh!t about Viktra Mordenheim in an unrelated thread that had nothing to do with LGBTQ or with 5e, when literally nobody asked, so now I have to defend her honour.

Personally Viktra is one of my favourite 'representation' changes in 5e lore, cause she feels like one that was made for LGBTQ fans' amusement rather than as a political statement.
You see, there's a running gag in the LGBTQ community that lesbian relationships are unproportionally intense and dramatic. IDK how much it's true, one can say it's just 'women are too emotional' all over again, but lesbians say it about themselves. It's self humour, not a homophobic stereotype.
And the thing is, this goddamn internet meme, is in fact, when you think about it, exactly the stuff gothic literature is built on. Intense emotions, atmosphere, doomed love... That sort of thing.
And that's exactly what Mordenheim is about, in all editions and genders. He claims to be logical and calculated, but everything he does, every single one of his crimes, was done out of love so intense for his wife that it defies logic, morals and even her own will.
And merging these two cultural phenomenons? Showing how the dank and the classic are actually one and the same? There's beauty in that, to me.
It's not sexualisation. Viktra is in no way sexier than Victor is, other than in being a woman. It's a dark, conflicted love story, focused not on predation or preversion but on the idea of a person who'd cross every moral boundary for her one true love and what does that mean about this person.
Also, in this version of the domain, Elise is an active NPC with agency and motives rather than just the woman in the fridge existing for two men to fight over, which is a huge improvement in and of itself.

Is 5e Ravenloft perfect? Absolutely not.
Does it need more development? Could it be better connected to the traditional continuity? Yes, and the fandom is already working on it.
But don't you dare attack a change that's actually thematically appropriate, adds the setting much-needed representation, and is (in my opinion) extremely fun.

Frankly, I was really surprised for the better by how so far with all the criticsm of 5e continuity nobody started with the 'woke ruins everything' comments literally every remake nowadays seems to get. On the contrary, I've seen criticsm that the new lore isn't woke enough compared to the traditional one, or accidentally stumbles on racist stereotypes while trying to add representation.
I'm not mad, just disappointed.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Changing Victor to Viktra is just dumb and shows that the new authors just don’t understand the source material at all.

Victor Mordenheim is Victor Frankenstein from Temu. The entire point of the Frankenstein story is man can not create life without woman. That it is against nature to create life in the way he did.

The Creature and Adam are the failed results of a blasphemous experiment. Of all the dark lords to genderflip, Victor is probably the worst choice. Him being a man is directly tied to the irony and the moral of the story.

The writers just wanted a lesbian relationship, and fell into the stereotype of the violent lesbian relationship (which, according to the numbers actually are the type of relationships with the highest recorded cases of physical domestic assault, so there’s that unfortunate implication).

If they really wanted to mix up Lamordia, they could have had Adam brutally injure Victor just at the point where he saves Elise, then replaced Elise in the cycle, replacing Victor. Then they could have explored a mother/son relationship instead of father/son.

[Le Noir Faineant]

What Drinnik said. What others have said, myself included.

Queer representation in general, wonderful and welcome. -- The way RL'21 does it, though, is either written as intentional rage-bait, or some of the worst RPG-related writing I personally have ever seen. From the team that is generally acknowledged to have delivered some of the worst RPG-related writing ever, no less.

The only reason this is not more in the general spotlight is because nobody outside of a very small fandom really pays attention to this stuff. And the only people who really do, the ones that do the "viral" marketing for WotC, depend on the brand not imploding. But if anyone ever held a closer lens to especially RL'21, everyone should expect some real, main-stream-worthy outrage about how people from marginalized communities are generally portrayed.

Now, to their credit, WotC seem to try and fix things: I expect Amy Chu, the writer of the upcoming Dark Horse Ravenloft - that tells a story involving Viktra - to sane-wash and level up the story. Chu is coming of a massive indie hit with her version of "Carmilla"; it's obvious what kind of story WotC expect her to write. Now, Chu, for all her talent, might not be able - or be allowed - to entirely exorcise "mean medieval Jeri Hogarth" from Ravenloft. However, I'm pretty sure we're going to see the switch towards the mother/kid dynamics that Drinnik has mentioned. WotC would be INSANE if they stuck with the "Bloodthirsty Psycho Lesbians of Lamordia - Never Trust Them With Science" story they seriously tried to ship with RL'21.

[alhoon]

Someone talked sh!t about Viktra Mordenheim in an unrelated thread that had nothing to do with LGBTQ or with 5e, when literally nobody asked, so now I have to defend her honour.

Personally Viktra is one of my favourite 'representation' changes in 5e lore, cause she feels like one that was made for LGBTQ fans' amusement rather than as a political statement.

I don't know AW... To me it seems a senseless gender-flip. I also doubt that the WotC care soooo much about queer representation and more about appearing to do so.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

You know what? To the mists with it. I shouldn't have engaged in another edition argument in the first place. Better stick to homebrew.

[Joël of the FoS]

You know what? To the mists with it. I shouldn't have engaged in another edition argument in the first place. Better stick to homebrew.

I understand this issue is something really important for you, and that is allright with me. Know that I will fight for your rights anytime.

You also have to understand that the VRGtR changes can be highly irritating to many, or that many people find them silly (my position). Suddenly, RL NPCs we know and love (for more than 30-40 years for some of the older folks here) have been changed into something we do not understand. And we do not think that these changes are helpful to the setting.

Also, it strongly polarizes, and do we need more of that in today’s world?

Representation is important. I hope VRGtR was written in good faith. But VRGtR becomes highly questionable when too many NPCs we knew are suddenly changed: sex change, sexuality change, or else. After too many of these changes, many can question WotC writer’s sense of balance (when making changes for adequate representation), impartiality and even their personal ethical (possibly pushing an activist agenda).

There were already queer RL NPCs they could have used to develop and expand the LGBT aspects - Hazlik, Alanik Ray & Arthur, possibly Nostalia Romaine, and let's say we add a new female darklord. Nobody would have said a word.

Think of LotR. You are a big fan for many years and you love every character. A new movie comes out. Suddenly it makes Aragorn a lesbian girl (without any design explanation), add a love triangle between Frodo, Sam and Gollum, as well as Gandalf now being bisexual. How does it improves the story? Nada. It would be thought of as silly, and useless to the story, as are many of the VRGtR changes (my opinion).

New 5e RL stuff that includes LGBT NPCs would have pass much easier here than strangely and inexplicably changing too many old loved NPCs.

[The Dark]

Someone talked sh!t about Viktra Mordenheim in an unrelated thread that had nothing to do with LGBTQ or with 5e, when literally nobody asked, so now I have to defend her honour.

Personally Viktra is one of my favourite 'representation' changes in 5e lore, cause she feels like one that was made for LGBTQ fans' amusement rather than as a political statement.

I don't know AW... To me it seems a senseless gender-flip. I also doubt that the WotC care soooo much about queer representation and more about appearing to do so.

I'm not a big fan of Viktra either, but WotC did hire a number of authors for VRgtR with a track record of caring about inclusion - Strix is part of SFWA's DEI committee and has written about the need for greater inclusiveness in gaming, Lee Knox Ostertag is a transgender man, Ajit George and F. Wesley Schneider shepherded Radiant Citadel through the production process to promote a slate of minority writers, Cassandra Khaw I know less about but uses they/them pronouns, Crystal Frasier is a transgender woman, and those are just the ones I'm familiar with to a greater or lesser extent. The company may or may not care as an overall entity, but the writers on the project have their own individual concerns, and a lot of them do care about representation.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Someone talked sh!t about Viktra Mordenheim in an unrelated thread that had nothing to do with LGBTQ or with 5e, when literally nobody asked, so now I have to defend her honour.

Personally Viktra is one of my favourite 'representation' changes in 5e lore, cause she feels like one that was made for LGBTQ fans' amusement rather than as a political statement.

I don't know AW... To me it seems a senseless gender-flip. I also doubt that the WotC care soooo much about queer representation and more about appearing to do so.

I'm not a big fan of Viktra either, but WotC did hire a number of authors for VRgtR with a track record of caring about inclusion - Strix is part of SFWA's DEI committee and has written about the need for greater inclusiveness in gaming, Lee Knox Ostertag is a transgender man, Ajit George and F. Wesley Schneider shepherded Radiant Citadel through the production process to promote a slate of minority writers, Cassandra Khaw I know less about but uses they/them pronouns, Crystal Frasier is a transgender woman, and those are just the ones I'm familiar with to a greater or lesser extent. The company may or may not care as an overall entity, but the writers on the project have their own individual concerns, and a lot of them do care about representation.

Problem is caring about representation is not the same as being a good author.

These were badly written. Good intentions, badly presented.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

add a love triangle between Frodo, Sam and Gollum,

You want to say there isn't?

I thought Frodo was using triangulation to deliberately induce jealousy to Sam. Triangulation is a psychological dynamic where a two-person conflict incorporates a third party. It can be a harmless way to seek advice, but is often a toxic manipulation tactic used to dodge accountability, create division, or maintain control by pitting people against each other.

as well as Gandalf now being bisexual.

I always thought he was asexual. As an angelic Maia sent to Middle-earth as a wizard (Istar), romantic attachments and family life were outside his nature and purpose. I am serious in this.

You know what? To the mists with it. I shouldn't have engaged in another edition argument in the first place. Better stick to homebrew.

Overall I agree with Joël to all points. It would be better for everyone if the VRGtR writers had created new darklords/adversaries/heroes to represent LGBTQ+ people as well as be more racially diverse than what they did. But what is done is done we don't have to continue talking about it. For me personally every good content (2e, 3e, 4e, 5e) is welcomed and everyone can decide what to keep or change in their gametable and content they publish to QtR.

To TheArcaneWeirdo:
I know I was adamant against the changes done in Valachan but that was fresh because of the new Horror Within book. The rest as I said was on aesthetics and redesign of already published maps.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Problem is caring about representation is not the same as being a good author.

These were badly written. Good intentions, badly presented.

Again, this is what it's all about: "Telling stories with queer people in it" is not the same as the "representation" we're talking about. That, or the works of Thomas Harris and Orson Scott Card would count as such, which we all agree that they don't or it gets the hose again.

RL'21, clearly written to be "gettable" for younger audiences as it was, sketched out quite a a few stories "with queer people in them", surely with the best of intentions. But because the writers lacked the delicacy and the necessary attention to detail, what they made of it often reads like it's intended to make queer people look bad. I am less concerned about "Female Dr Frankenstein" than I remain seriously concerned about "Black Minstrel sex fiend" Harkon Lukas.

-- And that's not nitpicking - that's treating the authors as seriously as they themselves have repeatedly demanded to be treated: You style yourself ambassadors of any kind of movement, you got to, well, "ambass". You telling everyone that you're the one doing "the gay representation" now and then going on to write some stuff that's pretteeey homophobic, that's simply not how it's done.

[Le Noir Faineant]

add a love triangle between Frodo, Sam and Gollum,

[...]

...I would have liked to follow this one with a joke, but I can only offer quiet existential desperation.

[alhoon]

add a love triangle between Frodo, Sam and Gollum,

You want to say there isn't?

Honestly, I thought the same...

[Mistmaster]

My understanding of the Frankestein myth was that you absolutely can create life but you are responsable of it. Victor was a bad father. That is my reading of the story.

[Joël of the FoS]

add a love triangle between Frodo, Sam and Gollum,

[...]

...I would have liked to follow this one with a joke, but I can only offer quiet existential desperation.

Do not bring Bill into this story!