Women in the Iron Faith

[IanFordam]

Gazetteer V asserts that, among the noble families of Nova Vaasa, second-eldest daughters are generally expected to marry or else join the Church. (See p.27.) Given that this is Nova Vaasa, "the Church" obviously means the Church of the Lawgiver, which doesn't strike me as terribly interested in providing positions of power to women. Mistipedia lists only Marynia Teslenko as a representative of the Iron Faith. So...

What do folks see as the role of (and possibilities for) women in the Church of the Lawgiver?

[Mistmaster]

Well given the characteristics of the Iron Church I see women in the clergy having to struggle a lot to raise into the ranks. In the Mistworld there are only a few female Paves ( heads of the church in a specific nation) and no one has ever made it as the Iron Fist ( I traslate it in Russian) of the Iron Church.

[Strahdsbuddy]

Not the most PC, but I imagine "or join the church" is likely a threat. Marry a noble or vanish into the iron faith...you've all heard how they break sassy little princesses who don't obey, haven't you?

All this said, I'd like to see the iron faith a bit less cartoonish, with some redeeming qualities to justify so many followers. It may be strange to outsiders (or readers) to see people submit so completely, but as a part of life, at least one good priest helping folks without being a blasphemer would be refreshing.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Not the most PC, but I imagine "or join the church" is likely a threat. Marry a noble or vanish into the iron faith...you've all heard how they break sassy little princesses who don't obey, haven't you?

All this said, I'd like to see the iron faith a bit less cartoonish, with some redeeming qualities to justify so many followers. It may be strange to outsiders (or readers) to see people submit so completely, but as a part of life, at least one good priest helping folks without being a blasphemer would be refreshing.

Agreed (saying this while writing a fanfic where the CoL priest is homophobic and secretly a vampire )

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Does the Iron Faith have monasteries?
Cause that's what I'd imagine. Can't handle that girl? Send her to be a nun on the other side of the country. Can't make too much trouble from there.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Does the Iron Faith have monasteries?
Cause that's what I'd imagine. Can't handle that girl? Send her to be a nun on the other side of the country. Can't make too much trouble from there.

And nope, that doesn't have to be cartoonishly evil.
Historically, in medival times nuns actually had more personal freedom than most 'normal' women. Yes, they didn't get out much, but they had more access to education and weren't constantly bossed around by men.

[IanFordam]

Does the Iron Faith have monasteries?
Cause that's what I'd imagine. Can't handle that girl? Send her to be a nun on the other side of the country. Can't make too much trouble from there.

And nope, that doesn't have to be cartoonishly evil.
Historically, in medival times nuns actually had more personal freedom than most 'normal' women. Yes, they didn't get out much, but they had more access to education and weren't constantly bossed around by men.

I'm not convinced that the Iron Faith has monasteries, just because I'm not sure what their reason for existence would be in the eyes of the Church. (Supporting lives of contemplation sounds dangerously close to encouraging critical thought.) On the other hand, I can see the existence of nunneries (nunasteries?) exactly to be places where those unwanted womenfolk can be sent. In fact, while the men of the Church are busy with important places like cities and castles and larger towns, the women of the Church may be expected to be the Church presence in unimportant places without political power.

In part to avoid mimicking medieval Christianity too closely (we already have the Church of Ezra for that), I would be inclined to say that there's a small male hierarchy at the top of each nunnery. On the other hand, anybody who has been sent to manage a nunnery can safely infer that they have no hope of rising in the Church hierarchy, and so I can imagine that most of them see less benefit to enforcing strict Church doctrine upon the women in their charge. In other words, yeah, the nuns probably have more latitude to actually tend the villages under their wings. Since education is kind of a non-thing in Nova Vaasa, most nuns might not be well-educated either, but they probably do have more freedom.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Does the Iron Faith have monasteries?
Cause that's what I'd imagine. Can't handle that girl? Send her to be a nun on the other side of the country. Can't make too much trouble from there.

And nope, that doesn't have to be cartoonishly evil.
Historically, in medival times nuns actually had more personal freedom than most 'normal' women. Yes, they didn't get out much, but they had more access to education and weren't constantly bossed around by men.

I'm not convinced that the Iron Faith has monasteries, just because I'm not sure what their reason for existence would be in the eyes of the Church. (Supporting lives of contemplation sounds dangerously close to encouraging critical thought.) On the other hand, I can see the existence of nunneries (nunasteries?) exactly to be places where those unwanted womenfolk can be sent. In fact, while the men of the Church are busy with important places like cities and castles and larger towns, the women of the Church may be expected to be the Church presence in unimportant places without political power.

In part to avoid mimicking medieval Christianity too closely (we already have the Church of Ezra for that), I would be inclined to say that there's a small male hierarchy at the top of each nunnery. On the other hand, anybody who has been sent to manage a nunnery can safely infer that they have no hope of rising in the Church hierarchy, and so I can imagine that most of them see less benefit to enforcing strict Church doctrine upon the women in their charge. In other words, yeah, the nuns probably have more latitude to actually tend the villages under their wings. Since education is kind of a non-thing in Nova Vaasa, most nuns might not be well-educated either, but they probably do have more freedom.

Just nitpicking: The Iron Faith does have the monastic order of the Kunduktors.

[Mistmaster]

Does the Iron Faith have monasteries?
Cause that's what I'd imagine. Can't handle that girl? Send her to be a nun on the other side of the country. Can't make too much trouble from there.

And nope, that doesn't have to be cartoonishly evil.
Historically, in medival times nuns actually had more personal freedom than most 'normal' women. Yes, they didn't get out much, but they had more access to education and weren't constantly bossed around by men.

I'm not convinced that the Iron Faith has monasteries, just because I'm not sure what their reason for existence would be in the eyes of the Church. (Supporting lives of contemplation sounds dangerously close to encouraging critical thought.) On the other hand, I can see the existence of nunneries (nunasteries?) exactly to be places where those unwanted womenfolk can be sent. In fact, while the men of the Church are busy with important places like cities and castles and larger towns, the women of the Church may be expected to be the Church presence in unimportant places without political power.

In part to avoid mimicking medieval Christianity too closely (we already have the Church of Ezra for that), I would be inclined to say that there's a small male hierarchy at the top of each nunnery. On the other hand, anybody who has been sent to manage a nunnery can safely infer that they have no hope of rising in the Church hierarchy, and so I can imagine that most of them see less benefit to enforcing strict Church doctrine upon the women in their charge. In other words, yeah, the nuns probably have more latitude to actually tend the villages under their wings. Since education is kind of a non-thing in Nova Vaasa, most nuns might not be well-educated either, but they probably do have more freedom.

I think that the clergy is well-educated. I mean at least be able to read Church Edicts.

[IanFordam]

Just nitpicking: The Iron Faith does have the monastic order of the Kunduktors.

I stand corrected!

[IanFordam]

I think that the clergy is well-educated. I mean at least be able to read Church Edicts.

Good point. I agree that Church will educate the clergy, even the female clergy, well enough to read. However, I'm not convinced that the Church sponsors education that does not apply to spreading the Rule and the Law.

... but that doesn't mean that the second-eldest daughters of noble families don't share their learning from the days before they entered the Church.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

I actually think the Iron Faith is a good example of a functional evil religion.
Like, they don't see themselves as worshipping an evil god. (Nobody does that, nobody's the villain in their own story. Realistically speaking, even the most obviously evil cults believe the deity or philosophy they're idolizing is a good one.)
They worship what they think is a good god.
The problem isn't that their god is evil, but that their dogma is evil.
No, it doesn't say 'murder is fine' or 'never help people'.
But every single aspect of it serves to form a corrupt society.
If every criticsm of authority is a sin, you get a government with no checks and balances, rulers who can't be held accountable for their actions in any way nor get the most important advice they can get.
If you believe people's evil is always reflected in their body, you'd end up both hurting people with disabilities and never suspecting normal-looking people who really are evil, and just never trying to get to know people, cause you'd assume your first impression of them is everything.
It's not cartoonish.
It's a system that works just as it was intended, that (Unlike The Eternal Order, for example) I can see working in the real world, with horrible results.

[IanFordam]

It's not cartoonish.
It's a system that works just as it was intended, that (Unlike The Eternal Order, for example) I can see working in the real world, with horrible results.

I agree. Then again, knowing that some people do find the Iron Faith cartoonish reminds me to try to avoid contributing to that impression in anything I might be working on.

[Strahdsbuddy]

It's not cartoonish.
It's a system that works just as it was intended, that (Unlike The Eternal Order, for example) I can see working in the real world, with horrible results.

I agree. Then again, knowing that some people do find the Iron Faith cartoonish reminds me to try to avoid contributing to that impression in anything I might be working on.

Your work in past year's QtR was pretty well fleshed out, I thought, and even though you leaned into the characterization of the Vaasi priest, he felt three dimensional and not cartoonish; I appreciated that a lot!

Someone needs to take up the pen and write a Bonds of Faith article to mirror Anchors of Faith from BoS. A scholarly look at how the Iron Faith views itself, the historical beats of its development and what a century of failed conversion has done to the confidence of the Himmelsk Nave would be something I enjoyed reading.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Not the most PC, but I imagine "or join the church" is likely a threat. Marry a noble or vanish into the iron faith...you've all heard how they break sassy little princesses who don't obey, haven't you?

All this said, I'd like to see the iron faith a bit less cartoonish, with some redeeming qualities to justify so many followers. It may be strange to outsiders (or readers) to see people submit so completely, but as a part of life, at least one good priest helping folks without being a blasphemer would be refreshing.

Reading Gaz V now, I've figured that this portrayal of the Iron Faith is serves a larger narrative purpose:
The theme of Nova Vassa is unhealthy dichotomy. Nobles VS Peasants, Law VS Chaos, Ideals VS Cynicality, Horses VS Plains' Cats... And obviously, Tristen VS Malken.
It's not that one side is a lie while the other is real - both are real, both are problematically extreme, and one can't exist without the other.