Demihuman Dread Thread

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

I see a lot of people complaining about Ravenloft being too humancentric.
My opinion is that it's an intentional and logical design choice, because of what I call 'The Boggart Effect':
A boggart is a monster that takes the form of its viewer's worst fear.
But what happens when the boggart is viewed by multiple people? It gets confused. It goes nuts trying to scare everyone at once - making it harder for him to scare anyone. So, the best tactic for boggart hunters is to gather a party where each party member has such different fears, that the boggart can't possibly frighten them all at once.
But you know who else is trying to scare their viewers?
Horror writers.
Fears are not only personal, but also cultural. We're afraid of losing what we value, and different cultures prioritize different values. An elf, raised to cherish the wilderness, would likely be far more terrified than a dwarf when encountering a curse that destroys trees, but stay calm when the dwarf, surrounding herself with her own creations and relying on them, freaks out as one of them turns against her.
I think the more different cultures are in a party, the harder it is to find something that scares everyone - and the more used the characters get to seeing new sights and encountering new perspectives and philosophies, the harder it is to truly shock any of them.

So, I think the best way to include fantastic creatures as heroes in Ravenloft is not to integrate more of them in otherwise humancentric plots, but to create plots catered to each fantastic culture's unique collective subconciousness. What horror stories would each species tell to itself?

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

So I got the idea for this thread in... Another one of my threads, which is also cool. I posted there my ideas for elvish horror and halfling horror, but then realised it deserve its own thread. If the link doesn't work, tell me.

viewtopic.php?t=12115

[Speedwagon]

I know that the user Hell_Born (here's his profile if you want to look through it: https://fraternityofshadows.com/forum/s ... 2&sr=posts) had a few threads on demihumans and non-humans in Ravenloft, and also had his own opinions about how to make the setting less humanocentric. You can find one of those threads here: https://fraternityofshadows.com/forum/v ... 73#p253273).

Additionally, he engaged in this topic on ThePiazza forums here in his Let's Read of the Gazetteers (https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=28227) and in his own thread of "Demihuman Heroes in the Domains of Dread" (https://www.thepiazza.org.uk/bb/viewtopic.php?t=33161).

Maybe these might help with your own thoughts on the subject?

Additionally, I like your idea of the boggart effect (lovely Harry Potter reference), but I think the reason why most authors haven't engaged with this idea is due to how human-ish most demihumans end up being. While there's definitely some discussion in the Ravenloft Player's Handbook of 3e on the different types of demihumans in the Mist (and there have been similar attempts to address this in both official and unofficial 5e publications, especially those on DMsGuild like Heroes of the Mists & Jeremy Forbing's Ravenloft Character Options bundle*), I think it's still difficult for a lot of people to fully envision the difference between a human's mindset & mentality compared to that of a nonhuman. I remember reading the Darkon gazetteer and while I did enjoy it, I also felt like a really interesting opportunity to delve into the various nonhumans of Ravenloft was missed. But I also accept that the 2e/3e lore of the setting is humanocentric, with that humanocentricity being something it carried from similar settings that came out at its time.

I think there's been some lovely work from the community, especially in both older and most recent editions of Quoth the Raven, which try to address and give some character to those demihumans. I myself take from both those old threads & articles, as well as try to take from other fantasy series that I enjoy for my own games (like World of Warcraft and its lore). If anything, I would be interested to see where this thread goes, and I can say this: I doubt that dwarves have the same relationship with claustrophobia that most people do, but I do think they'd hate wide open plains & fields like those of Nova Vaasa. And by developing the phobias of each species, you could break it down even further into different cultures of said species---Lamordic Dwarves vs Darkonian Dwarves or Sithican Elves vs Darkonian Elves and so on.



* found here: https://www.dmsguild.com/en/product/332 ... ons-bundle & Heroes of the Mist found here: https://www.dmsguild.com/en/product/176 ... -the-mists.

[The Dark]

A few other things that may have discouraged the use of demihumans in 2e Ravenloft:

1. Each of the other existing campaign settings at the time had slightly different demihumans. Using them would either require an explanation of what they were or a direction to see another product. That's fine in small doses, but could drive away customers if done to a large extent.

2. A lot of the early Darklords are adapted from existing fiction, and keeping them human is one less thing that needs adjustment in creating an expy of an existing character.

3. Kind of building on these first two, the audience is human, and having to think about what would be horrific to a demihuman or what sort of things would be such cultural taboos as to "deserve" a Misting could place the players at a further remove from the game psychologically. It can still work, but it's an extra complication that I could see authors and editors wanting to avoid on a product that's intended to turn a profit.

4. At the time of the Black Box, 2e still followed some of the 1e design principles around demihumans being relatively scarce as adventurers. Level limits were still a thing, and when Ravenloft came out there hadn't been the explosion of PC options from Dragon magazine and the Complete Book of Humanoids, let alone the absolute plethora of options in WotC-era D&D.

As far as 3e Ravenloft goes, they were sticking to existing canon as much as possible (and as much as permitted by the terms of the license), so significant changes weren't in the cards there.

I definitely think there's room for more demihumans in the Mists, both as Darklords and as available options for PCs. I personally wouldn't significantly adjust the Core, for ease of using existing products, but new demihuman-centric Domains, whether Pocket, Cluster, or another Core, would definitely fit into my vision of Ravenloft.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Additionally, I like your idea of the boggart effect (lovely Harry Potter reference), but I think the reason why most authors haven't engaged with this idea is due to how human-ish most demihumans end up being. While there's definitely some discussion in the Ravenloft Player's Handbook of 3e on the different types of demihumans in the Mist (and there have been similar attempts to address this in both official and unofficial 5e publications, especially those on DMsGuild like Heroes of the Mists & Jeremy Forbing's Ravenloft Character Options bundle*), I think it's still difficult for a lot of people to fully envision the difference between a human's mindset & mentality compared to that of a nonhuman. I remember reading the Darkon gazetteer and while I did enjoy it, I also felt like a really interesting opportunity to delve into the various nonhumans of Ravenloft was missed. But I also accept that the 2e/3e lore of the setting is humanocentric, with that humanocentricity being something it carried from similar settings that came out at its time.

I know, that's my challenge to myself as a writer: to portray fantastic cultures that are really different, without making it look like a 'planet full of hats'. I try to think about a species' history and what it could lead them too.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Let's finally start this one!
Been a while... (Sorry, Attention Deficit Creator Disorder).

Let's start with A - for Aarakocra

Yes, I know it's not a core species and not everyone's cup of tea, but I have a good reason for starting with it:
We know what Aarakorcra are afraid of.
They're afraid of confinment.
It's canon.
Stated in more than one source.
And it goes deeper than just gameplay-hampering claustrophobia. Aarakocra come from the Elemental Plane of Air, which mostly endless expanses of landless sky. When you grow up there, then come to our world of gravity and stone and walls, and pityful wingless people who'd only ever know one tiny layer of that already-limited world? Wouldn't that seem imprisoning?
I think Aarakocra are (much like myself) defined by a persistent drive for autonomy. They value their freedom more than almost anything, and would be anxious about any limitation or demand they view as threatening it.
But freedom is also a paradox: At some point, you have to limit it in order to protect it - But how much?
We see that in politics with the discussion about freedom of speech, but this can be extended for anything. The walls of the room I'm sitting in right now limit my freedom to go out to the street, but at the same time protect my freedom to write cool posts during rain!

Sakl'rock (the kl is to be pronounced as a click sound) was a magnificient engineer among eir people. Ey was to build a multi-planar portal that did not require any magic, instead powered by lightnings and working by manipulations of gravity (Be grateful that at least I didn't say 'quantom'). Thus, Sakl'rock's portals continued to function during the spellplague, allowing eir people to flee safely from their plane as it was absorbed into the elemental chaos.
But finding refuge in the Prime Material plane meant Sakl'rock's people had to adjust to the land-dwelling societies, and ten years are a long time. They started adopting their hosts' concepts of ownership and law, which to Sakl'rock felt like tyrrany. He retreated to the mountains, where earlier immigrants have already settled and where the old ways were somewhat preserved, and reassured himself that once the plague ends everything will go back to normal.
Spoiler: It didn't.
By the time the Plane of Air was safe for resettling, the Aarakocra had already established trade connections in multiple worlds. Trade connections! A decade ago these people didn't know what 'trade' is! The bird-people who returned from the exile had not tribe-leaders, but kings. They built not nests, but houses. They did not share, but sell. As Sakl'rock watched eir society becoming increasingly dependent on the once-unheard-of structures of hirarchy and capitalism, ey could only see the downsides.
And the worst part was that eir invention was what enabled those changes: Eir portals were what facilitated trade between worlds. Eir invention made em rich beyond imagining - but what was gold to em compared to the near-absolute freedom ey once had? And em being rich meant others were poor!
At first ey tried to warn eir brethern of the dangers of this change, but it only made em a laughing-stock: How could ey not see the prosperity their people was enjoying?
At last, ey found ey started hating the land-dwellers for conquering eir people - not by war, but by assimilation, by corrupting their culture with greed and power-lust.
Then... Nobody fully understands what Sakl'rock thought ey was achieving by building Charybdis.
Maybe the isolation and humiliation had driven em insane, making em think that if the land-dwellers stopped coming, things would go back to how they were; Maybe it was a protest, to show eir invention would not be used to promote the social order ey detested; Maybe it was simply a revenge.
Whatever the reason that drove em to bind the power of the maelstorm and sabotage the portals so they'd unleash it on any user, it might have been an explanation, but it was not an excuse.
Not in the face of the hundreds of casualties.
Not in the eyes of the newfound Aarakocra authories, the general public, or even other anti-authoritarian extremists.
And certainly not in the eyes of the Dark Powers.



Sakl'rock's powers and dominion:

Sakl'rock is a 20-level artificer, and can cast the Chain Lightning spell as a cantrip. However, eir mind was dulled by decades of terror and isolation, lowering eir intelligence score to 5. (Note: my idea is that eir power and madness would balance eachother out, resulting in a villain that has wild powers but actively has a relatively low chance in succeeding to use them, making em defeatable. The stats I gave here are probably either overpowered, unplayably weak or somehow both - if anyone here has more experience with creating RPG content, please inform me on what would be a more reasonable way to achieve this.)


Sakl'rock's Torment

- To Sakl'rock, being bound to a domain would be torment enough. To make it worse, eir pocket domain, Qaur'idor (Working Title), is nothing but an array of dark corridors and laboratories, not even one space having enough room for flight. There are many doors in that labyrinth that can lead to various domains, but if Saklrock tries to pass through them, ey only find emself in another corridor.
- Sakl'rock is trapped in mind as well as in body, eir former genius turning against em. Ey are convinced that escape from the demiplanes of dread can only be achieved by a ship powered by the 'device' ey call 'The Living Sail': An enormous sail sewn out of hundreds of wings. TW: Mutaliation

VIEW CONTENT:

Each wing is the right wing of an Aarakocra. Ey cuts them off from the Aarakocra unfortunate enough to find their way into eir domain.

It can never possibly work, but Sakl'rock would never give up eir delusion - ey always think ey just need more wings.


Closing the Borders

When Sakl'rock wishes to close the borders of Qaur'idor, a maelstorm starts raging outside the building, and anyone trying to get out is pushed back in and suffers 1d8 lightning damage.
However, the maelstorm simultaniously appears in a random place in or out of the Demiplanes of Dread - on that side of the storm, anyone in 30ft range from it must succeed a DC 20 Dexterity check or suffer 1d8 lightning damage and get dragged into Qaur'idor.


Aarakocra of the Mists
TW: Mutaliation

VIEW CONTENT:

Sakl'rock does not imprison eir victims after getting what ey wanted from them. Strangely, that's one line ey would still not cross. Instead, ey frees them to walk out of Quar'idor into whatever domain it currently resides in.
These Aarakocra's entrance to Ravenloft is especially traumatic. They emerge out of the mists alone and one-winged, into a land that had probably never seen one of their kind. The locals could see them as a monster - or as a fallen angel. Even if they return to their homeworld, their true home - the sky - is forever beyond reach.
Many Aarakocra die soon after walking out of Quar'idor, or spend the reminder of their lives as melancholous hermits mourning what they've lost. Others find refuge in one of the few corners in the land of mists that's willing to embrace strange creatures, and try to rebuild their lives quietly.
However, some disccover how unfortunately-common experiences such as theirs are in this world, and find the strength to rise up, fighting to save others from their fate or worse ones. They become champions of liberty in a world made to be a prison. These unlikely heroes might find out that the mists have somewhat changed them...

- Ability Score Increase. When determining your character’s ability scores, increase one score by 2 and increase a different score by 1, or increase three different scores by 1. You can't raise any of your scores above 20.
- Creature Type. You are a Humanoid.
- Size. Your size is Medium.
- Speed. Your walking speed is 30 feet.
- You're no longer capable of flight, but still have some intangible affinity towards the air, allowing you to innately cast the spell Feather Fall, without requiring components or spell slots.
- Talons. You have talons that you can use to make unarmed strikes. When you hit with them, the strike deals 1d6 + your Strength modifier slashing damage, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike.
- Mist Caller. Starting at 3rd level, you can cast the Fog Cloud spell with this trait, without requiring a material component. Once you cast the spell with this trait, you can’t do so again until you finish a long rest. You can also cast the spell using any spell slots you have of 2nd level or higher.
Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma is your spellcasting ability for it when you cast Fog Cloud with this trait (choose when you select this race).
- Free Spirit. Starting at level 5, you can test your will against that of a darklord over control of the misty border. Upon a successful DC 14 charisma check, you can cross a closed border safely and take with you up to 5 willing creatures.
(Note: There's no law saying you can't play a normal Aarakocra in Ravenloft. I'm literally just a random guy homebrewing stuff. This is an alternative for folks who want an angsty take on them, or who like the flavour of a bird-people but fear a character actually having unlimited flight would be overpowered.)

[Joël of the FoS]

A few other things that may have discouraged the use of demihumans in 2e Ravenloft:

1. Each of the other existing campaign settings at the time had slightly different demihumans. Using them would either require an explanation of what they were or a direction to see another product. That's fine in small doses, but could drive away customers if done to a large extent.

2. A lot of the early Darklords are adapted from existing fiction, and keeping them human is one less thing that needs adjustment in creating an expy of an existing character.

3. Kind of building on these first two, the audience is human, and having to think about what would be horrific to a demihuman or what sort of things would be such cultural taboos as to "deserve" a Misting could place the players at a further remove from the game psychologically. It can still work, but it's an extra complication that I could see authors and editors wanting to avoid on a product that's intended to turn a profit.

4. At the time of the Black Box, 2e still followed some of the 1e design principles around demihumans being relatively scarce as adventurers. Level limits were still a thing, and when Ravenloft came out there hadn't been the explosion of PC options from Dragon magazine and the Complete Book of Humanoids, let alone the absolute plethora of options in WotC-era D&D.

As far as 3e Ravenloft goes, they were sticking to existing canon as much as possible (and as much as permitted by the terms of the license), so significant changes weren't in the cards there.

I definitely think there's room for more demihumans in the Mists, both as Darklords and as available options for PCs. I personally wouldn't significantly adjust the Core, for ease of using existing products, but new demihuman-centric Domains, whether Pocket, Cluster, or another Core, would definitely fit into my vision of Ravenloft.

What he said.

And in 3e, calibans were created to include all the misfits.

Joël

[The Dark]

What he said.

And in 3e, calibans were created to include all the misfits.

Joël

And, from a mechanical perspective, to include the now-core Half-Orc as a player option. Without the Half-Orc to get reskinned as the Caliban, I'm not sure they'd have gotten into the 3e rules. They seem to have been a compromise between keeping 2e continuity and using as much of 3e's core as possible.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

So I did once doing an elf domain inspired by Beren and Luthien (With the Thingol expy as the darklord).
But today I've been thinking - what about the Silmarillion's real villains? I'm not touching Morgoth or Sauron yet, I'm trying to stay away from something too epic. But the humanoid villains who actually meant harm, not just a stupid dad I demonised.
And my first idea is Maeglin, that lil traitor.

My firat step would be expifying him.
I think Maeglin contributed to the modern interpretation of 'dark elf' and this should be acknowledged, but I don't like the 'dark elf=evil, light elf=good' dichotomy.

So I think I'll have my expy as a drow who grew up in the Underdark but found refuge on the surface - but instead of a 'light' elf kingdom, I'll have her adopted into a tribe of followers of Elistraee (The good drow moon goddess whose name I've probably misspelled) - then betray them to Lolth.

And yes, I said 'her'.
That's because... I think a big part of Maeglin's story is the tragedy of patriarchy. The way boys learn from the models they see around them that to be a man means to be possessive and dominant, that a woman's 'no' is the end of the world, and preceed to imitate that - and the way it hurts them just as much as it hurts girls.
And drow society is matriarchal, not patriarchal - meaning that to preserve this dynamic, our darklord must be genderflipped - or maybe I can forgo the gender factor, and switch it from 'his father murdered his mother when she tried to live him, grew up to betray his city just to get rid of his crush's husband even though said crush made it clear she wasn't romantically interested in him' to 'raised in a culture that normalises backstabbing, grew up to be a horrible traitor'? IDK.

I'd have to read some more about drow and their pantheon to work out the details of the story.

[Mistmaster]

I have an expanded drow pantheon if you are interested in it. Complete with all canon deities with some alignement change to make it more flexible and some addition to make it more complete.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

I have an expanded drow pantheon if you are interested in it. Complete with all canon deities with some alignement change to make it more flexible and some addition to make it more complete.

Ooh, that would be lovely.

[Mistmaster]

I have an expanded drow pantheon if you are interested in it. Complete with all canon deities with some alignement change to make it more flexible and some addition to make it more complete.

Ooh, that would be lovely.

Drows

The Drow Pantheon is known as Sharae Seldarin, Dark Seldarine or Night Seldarine it is a strongly polarized Pantheon divided between two leaderships, that of Eilistraee, the Dancer of the Night and that of Lolth, the Spider Queen. In this pantheon I will change Vhaeraun and Selvetarm alignments toward non evil ones and I would also change Keptolo's ethical axis, I will also change Elistraee's relationship with Lolth from daughter and mother to twin sisters. They are both children of Corellon and Angharradh and co-operated to create Drows from Elves. They then competed for the title of pantheon leader won by Eilistraee, and still coveted by Lolth.
Eilistraee is the Chaotic Good Greater Goddess of dance , hope, moon, night sky, redemption and forgiveness and she is the titular leader of her Pantheon. Her domains are Chaos, Charme, Darkness, Good, Healing and Protection, her Holy Symbol is a silhouette of a naked drow female dancing under a full moon. Her Favourite Weapon is the longsword.
Lolth is the Chaotic Evil Greater Goddess of lies, female dominance, spiders, seduction, cruelty and ambition. Her domains are Chaos, Charme, Darkness, Destruction, Evil and Trickery.Her Holy Symbol is a spider, her Favoured Weapon is the flail.
Eilistraee's consort is Vhaeraun, the Masked Rebel, the Chaotic Neutral Intermediate God of rebellion, risks, thieves, trade and theater. His domains are: Chaos, Darkness, Liberation, Travel and Trickery His Holy Symbol is a mask with a dagger, his Favourite Weapon is the dagger.
Lolth's consort is Keptolo, the Eager Consort, the Neutral Evil Intermediate God of social climbing, gossip, intoxicants, politics and bootlicking. His domains are: Charme, Evil, Knowledge, Nobility and Trickery. His Holy Symbol is a mushroom, his Favourite Weapon is the rapier.
Eilistraee and Vhaeraun children are:
Selvetarm, the Waiting Spider, the Chaotic Good Intermediate God of war, battle, bravery and patience. His domains are Chaos, Good, Protection, Strength and War. His symbol is a spider over a heavy mace crossed with a Longsword. His Favourite Weapons are the heavy Mace and the longsword.
Quarilieth, the Spell Weaver, is the Lawful Good Intermediate Goddess of learning, magic, written words, schooling and art. Her domains are Good, Knowledge, Law, Magic and Rune. Her Holy Symbol is a scroll with runes on.Her Favourite Weapon is the sap.
Zinzerena, the Rogue Messenger, is the Chaotic Neutral Lesser Goddess of audacity, messengers, flirting and wit. Charme, Chaos, Travel and Trickery.
Zerlaxe, the Underground Traveler, is the Chaotic Good Lesser God of exploration, dungeons, underground and wildlands. His domains are Chaos, Earth, Good and Travel. His Holy Symbol is a stalactite with a lamp on, his Favourite Weapon is the Heavy Crossbow.
Lolth and Keptolo children are:
Kiaransalee, the Vindicative Banshee, is the Chaotic Evil Intermediate Goddess of undeath, dark magic, rage, revenge and death. Her domains are Chaos, Death, Destruction, Evil and Magic. Her Holy Symbol is a screaming banshee, her Favourite Weapon is the Dagger.
Makalee, the Oppriming Sun, is the Lawful Evil Lesser Goddess of sun, slavery, drought and oppression. Her domains. are Evil, Law, Nobility and Sun. Her Holy Symbol is a crown shaped as a black sun. Her Favourite Weapon is the Shortspear
Kundra, the Spiral of Change, is the Chaotic Neutral Lesser God of winds, springs, heat and change. His domains are Air, Chaos, Fire and Water. His Holy Symbol is a spiral with a flame, a water drop and a gust of wind. His Favourite Weapon is a Longbow.
Ghaunadaur, the Father of Slimes, is the Chaotic Evil Lesser God of outcasts, slime, filth and alienation. His domains are Chaos,Destruction, Evil and Madness. His Holy Symbol is an eye oozing slime. His Favourite Weapon is the quarterstaff.
The Sharae Seldarine technically have one shared realm, Svartalfgard in Nidavellir on Ysgard, but Lolth and her family reside in the Demonweb Pits on the 66th layer of the Abyss, while having their own residence in Svartalfgard . Eilistraee, from her side, maintains a small outpost in the Demonweb Pit, the Hope Beacon. Kiaransalee has a secondary realm, Lament of the Banshee Queen on another layer of the Abyss, Thanatos and her sister Makalee has a secondary realm, the Hall of the Binding Sun, in Baator’s 4th layer, Phlegesto. Kundra resides prevalently in Svartalfgard, while Zinzerena, as the Pantheon's messenger, wanders. Vhaeraun has a secondary domain, the Lair of the Masked Lord, in Limbo, while Selvetarm has a secondary realm he inherited from his mother in Arborea, Dark Elves Rest. Ghaunadaur has a secondary realm in Abyss’ 528th layer, Molor.
Quarilieth has a secondary realm on Jovion, Celestia, called Quarilieth’s Library. Zerlaxe wanders.

[Mistmaster]

I have an expanded drow pantheon if you are interested in it. Complete with all canon deities with some alignement change to make it more flexible and some addition to make it more complete.

Ooh, that would be lovely.

So, what do you think about it?