Dementliue discontinuity

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

What do y'all think about the differences between 3e and 5e versions of Dementliue?
(I know it's not the only domain that was changed, but most from what I've seen as a non-expert most changes were just genderswapping the darklord and tweaking some details. Dementliue looks like they changed its whole point.)

Like, I think Saidra is a lot more interesting as a villain than Dominic (like, evil Cinderella running a city where everyone pretend to be nobles? Can it get cooler than that?!) and can't wait to run The Grand Masqurade in a campaign. I also think the new version is better themed: everything about 5e DL is about pretense and illusions, relating to Saidra's imposter-syndrom based torment and to her background story - while Dominic's torment doesn't seem to be that related to his background, his crimes or the rest of the domain (and actually feels like a cheap copy of Strahd's torment? like, doomed to falled in love with reincarnations of your dead crush who will never love you back >> doomed so every single of of your crushes will hate you?).

But...
As part of the new 'Life is an illusion, the universe is a hologram, buy gold' theme, Chateaufaux is now an illusion created by the mist. Which is an amazing cocept, but seems to retcon... like, everything that was ever writtten about Chateaufaux. Which includes some pretty cool NPCs. Like, what is the Noble Brotherhood of Assassains gonna do now? Relocate? Not like it's impossible, but IDK.
I think it's generally a positive change, but I'm new to Ravenloft and had never played 3e.
So WDYT?

[Rock of the Fraternity]

From what I recall, the new girl supposedly took over, rather than replaced Dominic. There's a hook that he's still alive somewhere in the domain.

Personally, I don't care too much for 5e Dementlieu. If I were to keep it, it would be as a "party island" in the Bay of Pernault. Third edition Dementlieu is a hotbed of appearance and manipulation, perfect for a social intrigue-style of play, which some players are going to enjoy a lot. Appearance is important in third edition, but it's one you have to work at, not just a magical illusion. There is genuine conflict between the haves and have-nots, and both a dreadful fluidity and intractibility in the social spectrum. It is so dangerous to rise, so easy to fall...

Dominic's curse suits him, to my way of thinking. He is the great manipulator, who wants to be adored and pampered. As soon as he starts to have genuine feeling (or desire) for anyone, they immediately start to find him revolting, and his control fails.
It's different from the object of Strahd's sole focus slipping through his grasp again and again, in that Strahd's conflict with Tayana is personal and recurring; he has plenty of luck (of all sorts) with other women, but it is Tatyana he desires most, and she is the one person he'll never have.

[The Dark]

Out of the 5e domains, their version of Dementlieu is among my favorites. For my own campaign, I would make it a new Island domain and rename things so that I could use the original Dementlieu as well.

[IanFordam]

Personally I find Saidra's Dementlieu too limited. I far prefer domains which offer a multitude of plot possibilities. For example, Dominic's Dementlieu offers a whole society full of interesting people and factions. It's suitable for part of a PC's background or as a home base for a series of adventures.

That said, I kind of like the idea (which Rock mentioned) of using Saidra's pocket domain as an island in the Bay of Pernault. That way it becomes a part of the wider Dementlieu.

[Strahdsbuddy]

Personally I find Saidra's Dementlieu too limited.

I agree with this, feels like a one trick pony. How many masquerade balls can you run? In previous editions, the entire city of Port-a-Lucine is a masquerade, with nobles rising and falling not only by the whims of the dark Lord, but also the fickle whims of fashion and the influencers who drive it. Dementlieu became one of my favorite domains after I saw how Kilgrave was portrayed on Jessica Jones. Dominic is really everywhere and his control is absolute. Layer in another mind control villain in the Living Brain and now the mystery becomes "who's whose" and you can play that to horrific effect.

[LeMaxul]

I haven't ran a Dementlieu adventure yet, but I've been considering running Dominic and Saidra as two people/personalities that share the same body, kind of like how Marika/Radagon were in Elden Ring, if you know about that. On Chateaufaux specifically, I like to treat it as a sort of space that exists in bent space - much of it is an illusion, but not all of it. Most who reach it become trapped there, illusions preventing them from escaping.

[alhoon]

Out of the 5e domains, their version of Dementlieu is among my favorites. For my own campaign, I would make it a new Island domain and rename things so that I could use the original Dementlieu as well.

That.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

As it has been said previously Dominic's concept as a master manipulator is more intriguing in my opinion and I disagree with those who conceive him as a lame adversary. I see Dominic as someone who controls everything behind the spotlight, an adversary who uses psychological manipulating techniques such as gaslighting to achieve his goals, and finally someone who has an army of thralls, the Obedient. I see Dementlieu as a place where the conspiracy theory of a shadow government secretly controlling the government is actually true. Where the oppressed commoners may at any time revolt against the aristocracy if the right circumstances allow it, and who better to orchastrate something like that but the . The Brain, Dominics main adversary as mentioned before and the war of control over the people of Dementlieu between the two, is a very good concept for adventures where you don't know who your friend or enemy is, creating a sense of isolation to the PCs. Dementlieu also makes a perfect place of aristocrat intrigue and Scarlet Pimpernel kind of adventures, and if we take into account the constant Cold War style spy-war with Falkovnia, then we have a domain where nothing is as it appears to be, in a much subtler manner than the one dimentional 5e Saidra d'Honaire's Dementlieu where everyone (including her) plays pretend.

I agree "Change her name to Saidra Lerouge and banish her into a small island in Pernault Bay!"
Then have the Scarlet Pimpernel pay her a visit.

[Manofevil]

I love that movie. Sir Percy slays me.
‘They seek him he-ah, they seek him they-ah.
Those-uh fenchies seek him everywhey-uh.
is he in heaven, or is he in hell
That damned, elusive, Pimpernel’

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Personally I find Saidra's Dementlieu too limited.

I agree with this, feels like a one trick pony. How many masquerade balls can you run?

I feel like Saidra's Dementlieu is meant to serve as a starting point for new fans. There aren't many official 5e adventures yet, and not every kid wanting to play Ravenloft is going to obssessively search and adapt 3e ones. I tried to read about the OG Dementlieu in Mistipedia, I went down that rabbit hole, and I still don't have an inkling on how to start an adventure there.
I mean, they could have tried to explain the OG domain's characters, dynamics and history - but the book already presents another domain focused on manipulative nobles and political intrigue - Borca. I'm aware this might sounds stupid to more experienced fans, but to me as a newbie there isn't a lot of difference.
So.
Instead of desparately trying to explain to dumb teens like me who want to DM in Ravenloft why those two realms are so different and special and both worth playing - which they probably could, but not in the format of 6 pages for each domain+darklord+adventure ideas - they gave us an original, easily-understood concept, which so far offers inspiration for a single arc or mini-campaign (arrive, meet the local 'nobility' and climb up the social ladder, gradually understand it's all fake, investigate, figure out Saidra's backgroud story, reveal her during the Masqurade, fight, win, jump to the mists and off to the next adventure), but gives us that arc. It writes itself. It's playable for folks who just entered the fandom.
And just to be clear, I'm not saying this as an offense to Dominic.
It's more like...
Its like roleplaying a Warlock versus roleplaying a Fighter.
A skilled storyteller could undoubtly come up with a dozen interesting background stories for a fighter. Literature is full of examples. But most people playing a fighter aren't skilled yet, they're newbies who were told that's the easiest class to learn. And the only thing they know about their character is that it can fight! what are they supposed to do with that?
A warlock, on the other hand, instantly prompts the player: Who's your patron? What made you reckless or ambitious or desparate enough to sell your soul for magic? Do you have a plan out? How is your patron's nature influencing your aesthetics and behaviour?
It railroads you in a more-or-less specific direction, but that's what you need when you don't have your own direction yet.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

On Chateaufaux specifically, I like to treat it as a sort of space that exists in bent space - much of it is an illusion, but not all of it. Most who reach it become trapped there, illusions preventing them from escaping.

Sounds awesome! Can you detail more?

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

What do y'all think about the differences between 3e and 5e versions of Dementliue?
(I know it's not the only domain that was changed, but most from what I've seen as a non-expert most changes were just genderswapping the darklord and tweaking some details. Dementliue looks like they changed its whole point.)

So I delved some more and realised the Lamordia one was more than a gender swap. Too many complaints on Adam not being evil enough to deserve darklordhood, I guess?
Falcovania feels like they tried to preserve the 'hopeless war' theme without introducing the concept of clusters.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

But...
As part of the new 'Life is an illusion, the universe is a hologram, buy gold' theme

Nobody got my Gravity Falls refernce

[IanFordam]

Personally I find Saidra's Dementlieu too limited.

I agree with this, feels like a one trick pony. How many masquerade balls can you run?

I feel like Saidra's Dementlieu is meant to serve as a starting point for new fans. There aren't many official 5e adventures yet, and not every kid wanting to play Ravenloft is going to obssessively search and adapt 3e ones. I tried to read about the OG Dementlieu in Mistipedia, I went down that rabbit hole, and I still don't have an inkling on how to start an adventure there.
I mean, they could have tried to explain the OG domain's characters, dynamics and history - but the book already presents another domain focused on manipulative nobles and political intrigue - Borca. I'm aware this might sounds stupid to more experienced fans, but to me as a newbie there isn't a lot of difference.
So.
Instead of desparately trying to explain to dumb teens like me who want to DM in Ravenloft why those two realms are so different and special and both worth playing - which they probably could, but not in the format of 6 pages for each domain+darklord+adventure ideas - they gave us an original, easily-understood concept, which so far offers inspiration for a single arc or mini-campaign (arrive, meet the local 'nobility' and climb up the social ladder, gradually understand it's all fake, investigate, figure out Saidra's backgroud story, reveal her during the Masqurade, fight, win, jump to the mists and off to the next adventure), but gives us that arc. It writes itself. It's playable for folks who just entered the fandom.
And just to be clear, I'm not saying this as an offense to Dominic.
It's more like...
Its like roleplaying a Warlock versus roleplaying a Fighter.
A skilled storyteller could undoubtly come up with a dozen interesting background stories for a fighter. Literature is full of examples. But most people playing a fighter aren't skilled yet, they're newbies who were told that's the easiest class to learn. And the only thing they know about their character is that it can fight! what are they supposed to do with that?
A warlock, on the other hand, instantly prompts the player: Who's your patron? What made you reckless or ambitious or desparate enough to sell your soul for magic? Do you have a plan out? How is your patron's nature influencing your aesthetics and behaviour?
It railroads you in a more-or-less specific direction, but that's what you need when you don't have your own direction yet.

Note that you asked what we thought about the differences, and some of us answered. You disagree, which is entirely fine. You offered a good explanation of your reasons, just as prior respondents tried to give good explanations for theirs. Both perspectives are valid. Rest assured that at some point we were all starting off and trying to find our way.

[Speedwagon]

I started DMing in junior year of high school back in 2017. I’ll admit, when I started out was very time-consuming to come up with homebrew ideas and implement them instead of just running modules and relying on setting books to give me a guide. I wanted setting books like Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloftthat gave me a path, and I made do with the ones that were available at the time. Thing is, I eventually got more experience writing and acting and reading---many times thanks to those very books---and then grew out of relying on them exclusively and wanted to fine-tune my own homebrew ideas more. I still liked researching older lore to draw inspiration from, but I was also more willing to mix-and-match depending on what I wanted to convey to a certain group of PCs. Like IanFordam said, we all had to start off somewhere at some point and find our own way.

I got into Ravenloft thanks to Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft so it holds a special place in my mind for that alone, even if I prefer older lore. I remember being on vacation in France with my parents, visiting relatives, while reading about Dementlieu and Richemulot. I giggled at the faux-French in the book and felt happy to see something so clearly inspired by the country I was in and have a history with. It was by talking with people on this forum and on other forums (ThePiazza, r/ravenloft, Facebook groups, etc) that I learned about old Dementlieu and liked what I saw. But I also immediately saw the differences too. While I prefer older canon, there's nothing stopping me from creatively asking myself, "How can I do both?" or "How can I do neither?" If you want to run a vampire or werewolf or doppelganger or fey hunting adventure in Dementlieu, there's always a way to do it! If you like 5e Saidra and appreciate how Van Richten's Guide to Ravenloft presents a story arc to easily run, go for it! If you need ideas, I'd hope that this forum can serve as a useful sounding board to figure things out. And it's also useful to know your table---I know one of my tables of PCs would vibe better with 5e Dementlieu, while another table loves the vibe of 3e and the kinds of ideas presented by Mephisto and other contributors.