Ravenloft Witch and Warlock class problems

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Howdy!

In the 2e Van Richten's Monster Hunters Compedium III the witch/warlock class is actually a kit that can be adopted by any non-spellcaster class (fighter, thief), the only prerequisites are Int, Wis and Con ability scores and to have been tutored by another witch/warlock of at least 3rd level.

It is a strictly binary class with women (witches) being able to cast only priest spells and men (warlocks) only wizard spells.

In 3e there is the Hallowed Witch (Warlock) class that can be adopted by any character with the following prime requisites

Alignment: Neutral
Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks
Knowledge (nature) 4 ranks
Spellcraft 8 ranks
Spell Focus (Divination or Enchantment) Feat
Ability to cast 2nd level arcane spells and 2nd level divine spells
Special: must be initiated by an existing coven

This means that to become either a witch or warlock a character needs a minimum CL 6 (as they have to be at least a 3rd level divine caster and a 3 level arcane caster). As they advance they cast spells as if they were advancing in both classes.

In 2e Van Richten's Monster Hunters Compedium III witches could be any non-chaotic alignment and warlocks any non-lawful. Their magic was also different than normal priest/wizard magic and some spells and items were unaffected by Weave magic or they could not affect Weave magic. Also class advancement was depending on normal class, which means that witch/warlocks advanced as a bonus to their normal class although they could not use any other form of magic or pcsionist powers.

I believe both versions have pros and cons and it would be good if we worked to create a version where best parts of both create a balanced whole.

I am not sure if in 3e it has been a typo of having both witches and warlocks having to know both arcane and divine magic to become Hallowed Witches/Warlocks and the dual advancement makes them too powerful in my opinion.

I believe it is ridiculous to advance in any non-magic class and gain spellcasting levels.

Also isn't too much to have to be a minimum level of 3/3 in two spellcasting classes to become a hallowed witch warlock which gamewise is weird as a child raised in a coven must first be either priest/wizard, druid/sorcerer etc. before learning about the Weave...

Any thoughts on this?
Has anyone fixed the bugs in this class?

[alhoon]

Back then, I didn't see it as a problem at all. Even before this Prestige class, we had other Cleric/Wizard hybrid prestige classes. The way it was handled is not that you are 3rd level cleric and then 3 levels of sorcerer.
It was you start as a 1st lvl cleric, then get a level of wizard, then 2nd level cleric, then 2nd wizard... etc

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Back then, I didn't see it as a problem at all. Even before this Prestige class, we had other Cleric/Wizard hybrid prestige classes. The way it was handled is not that you are 3rd level cleric and then 3 levels of sorcerer.
It was you start as a 1st lvl cleric, then get a level of wizard, then 2nd level cleric, then 2nd wizard... etc

It doesn't matter how you advance it can be step by step or gaining levels in one class then to the other.

My point is that the class/kit was specifically binary before, witches cast priest spells warlocks arcane spells. I am not talking about gender here the male/female division (as anyone can identify with whatever they want), but I kind of liked the idea (although I was perplexed by it in the beginning) of witches and warlocks completing each other magically. Now both have to be both arcane and divine spellcasters and makes those who identify themselves as Halan witches/warlocks a minimum of CL 7 which is too high in my opinion. It means that someone to be part of a spellcasting coven has to be CL 7 or greater. Are the various monasteries of Hala full of 7th CL characters?

What about the young characters that are participating in a rituals with their parents or the coven they have become a new member off? With this rule new, young or in general non experienced members of a coven are useless unless they are of 7th level or greater.

[alhoon]

I respectfully disagree on the following points:

- Someone identifying as a Hala Witch doesn't need the Prestige. 1 level of druid to have some magic seems fine to me.
- I prefer the "We do both!" version of Hala Witches.
- Level 7 required for Prestige classes is nothing special. Usually it was levels 5-9 needed.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I found the Prestige Class Mystic Theurge (DMG II p. 192), it has almost the same prerequisites and has the ability to advance in both arcane and divine magic as a Hallowed Witch does, but lacks the coven and witchcraft class abilities, has the same Att but worse saves and lacks spell resistance. Finally it has 4d Hit Dice instead of the d6 that Hallowed Witches have. Why would anyone pick that over Hallowed Witch?

[Rock of the Fraternity]

I found the Prestige Class Mystic Theurge (DMG II p. 192), it has almost the same prerequisites and has the ability to advance in both arcane and divine magic as a Hallowed Witch does, but lacks the coven and witchcraft class abilities, has the same Att but worse saves and lacks spell resistance. Finally it has 4d Hit Dice instead of the d6 that Hallowed Witches have. Why would anyone pick that over Hallowed Witch?

Maybe because they worship a different deity from Hala?
Or because they're playing in a non-Ravenloft setting?

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Maybe because they worship a different deity from Hala?
Or because they're playing in a non-Ravenloft setting?

I meant in Ravenloft, but you have a point...

Anyway this homebrew feat fixes some issues I had

Blood of the Chosen
You are descended from one of the original thirteen men and women chosen by Hala. This bloodline binds you to her Weave, and draws you to others with similar gifts.

Effect: Select a 0-level spell from any spell list. You can cast this spell as a spell-like ability once per day. You automatically recognize others with this feat with a DC 15 Spot or Listen check, and have a +2 to Charisma-based checks with such people.

Special: You can form covens with Hallowed Witches and/or others who have this feat. These covens cast spells as a group as described in the Hallowed Witch class. Without a Hallowed Witch present, the total spell levels your coven can cast per day is equal to one less than the number of members in your coven. Your coven selects these spells each month from the lists for sorcerers or clerics.

[alhoon]

That quote is not readable, Mephisto. It seems white on white on me.

That said, once I read it, it mentions something about special spellcasting for Hala Witches and their covens. What does that mean? I don't remember anything special for Hala magic.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

That quote is not readable, Mephisto. It seems white on white on me.

Is it better now?

That said, once I read it, it mentions something about special spellcasting for Hala Witches and their covens. What does that mean?

Covens are formed by 3 witches/warlocks or more and have access to more powerful magic. Normally in 3e only characters of the Hallowed Witch prestige class can form a coven, with this feat one does not have to be a Hallowed Witch to be part of one. So for instance the young 1st level caster, daughter of Witch X can replace her aunt, Witch Y when she gets knocked down by Enemy A thus assisting Witches X,Y, Z.

(thats some serious math over there...)

I don't remember anything special for Hala magic.

Halan witch magic takes power directly from the Weave and in 2e the primordial magic power does not effect other kinds of magic and is not affected by it. For instance a ring of spell storing is unusable by Halan witches unless it wasd made by their magic.

[alhoon]

Got it, thanks Mephisto.
That said the green text is barely better. Why don't you use the normal color so it would adjust to the background people use?

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Got it, thanks Mephisto.
That said the green text is barely better. Why don't you use the normal color so it would adjust to the background people use?

Done

[Teravala]

I believe there was also some content in one of the older Quoth the Raven issues that had feats for creating a coven out of a pool of spellcasters, of which only 1 had to be a confirmed witch (or warlock) of Hala, granting them all access to coven magic when working in cooperation. (as a modification of the 3.x hallowed witch class)