Mordenheim Bloodline issue (warning: mature discussion)

[tomokaicho]

I was going through An Illustrated History of the Core by Ryan Naylor when I read the following:

In terms of Adam being the darklord: I would like to point out that, while their descriptions say Adam was created evil, Adam and Mordenheim's descriptions (and the novel) say they're both unreliable narrators. I think we should go with the Red Box and say that, at first, Adam was childlike and innocent, and then, out of hatred for Mordenheim, deliberately chose evil. In the novel, you can even pin down the moment he does it, because both Mordenheim and Adam refer to the same scene. And then whatever he did to Elise and Eva was enough to earn his darklordship. I like to think he deliberately dropped Eva out of spite, and is therefore guilty of trying to kill the only two people he actually cared about in the world just out of rage and the desire to hurt Mordenheim.

Needless to say, I do not approve of Eva's descendants being playable as of Legacies of Blood. I think that may have been misguided.

That reminded me directly of this thread. I approached the problem from the biological perspective, but it seems clear to me that Adam murdered Eva, and she could not have had descendants.

[Mistmaster]

He tried to, no one says he managed to. That said, in my Ravenloft Adam is C/N and von Mordenheim is the Darklord, because frankly a brooding brute is not as interesting as a darklord as a polimath genius with obsessions.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

That reminded me directly of this thread. I approached the problem from the biological perspective, but it seems clear to me that Adam murdered Eva, and she could not have had descendants.

I never understood why they included the Mordenheim family in Legacy of Blood when there were others that could be used such as the Timothys or the children of Harkon Lukas. I guess they wanted to create a scientist prestige class so they used that.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

That reminded me directly of this thread. I approached the problem from the biological perspective, but it seems clear to me that Adam murdered Eva, and she could not have had descendants.

I never understood why they included the Mordenheim family in Legacy of Blood when there were others that could be used such as the Timothys or the children of Harkon Lukas. I guess they wanted to create a scientist prestige class so they used that.

If that was all they wanted, they might have gone with Frantisek Markov's family as well. Say what you will of the old silverback, but he definitely has the passion and curiosity to make him a scientist. Shame he lacked the formal training and ethics, but any surviving members of the bloodline might have picked those up after the old butcher was whisked away to his personal hell.

[KingCorn]

Only semi-related, I prefer shared darklord-ship because I see Adam and Mordenheim as mirrors of each other. While externally Adam portrays himself as the violent brute, his actions suggest a cold and rational sadism. While it seems like he flies off the handle, his acts of cruelty against Mordenheim have also appered to be calculated. He also sabotages Mordenheims work just when he has made a breakthrough. He coldly chooses the moment that will cause his creator the most pain.
Mordenheim meanwhile, while at first having a mask of cold rationalism, is really an overly emotional and irrational madman. What drives him is not cold curiosity but manic pride, denial of his weakness, and when all goes wrong he always flies into an over-emotional rage. Like in the novel, the 'monster' acts with cold deliberation to destory his creators life, and the creator grows more manic and insane with his vengeful rage.
Just as well, Adam is more rational and aware than Mordenheim. Mordenheim regects the existance of magic, even when it stares him in the face. Adam meanwhile is all to aware of the nature of the world, and that presumably includes his curse. It won't take much for him to realize that some attempt at forgiveness could free him from his torment and allow him to perhaps find a world that will accept him. And with this knowledge, he always chooses not to. He's aware of what he needs to do to be happy, and he deliberately chooses not to be so he can continue to torment Mordenheim. In a way, he is almost MORE evil than his creator.

[tomokaicho]

Only semi-related, I prefer shared darklord-ship because I see Adam and Mordenheim as mirrors of each other.

I definitely think that Adam and Victor could be co-darklords, with one small detail. Victor can't exercise his darklordship while Adam is conscious and in his constant low level rage and anger towards Victor. The extent of Adam's anger towards Victor simply cancels out Victor from exercising his powers, and Victor's scientific atheist mindset has him in denial about it anyway.

If Victor had Adam on an operating table, perhaps after lobotomizing Adam (albeit temporality, because Adam will regenerate), that might open the door to experience the metaphysical significance of his darklordship, something that Adam's rage normally keeps him from knowing.

[Mistmaster]

Only semi-related, I prefer shared darklord-ship because I see Adam and Mordenheim as mirrors of each other. While externally Adam portrays himself as the violent brute, his actions suggest a cold and rational sadism. While it seems like he flies off the handle, his acts of cruelty against Mordenheim have also appered to be calculated. He also sabotages Mordenheims work just when he has made a breakthrough. He coldly chooses the moment that will cause his creator the most pain.
Mordenheim meanwhile, while at first having a mask of cold rationalism, is really an overly emotional and irrational madman. What drives him is not cold curiosity but manic pride, denial of his weakness, and when all goes wrong he always flies into an over-emotional rage. Like in the novel, the 'monster' acts with cold deliberation to destory his creators life, and the creator grows more manic and insane with his vengeful rage.
Just as well, Adam is more rational and aware than Mordenheim. Mordenheim regects the existance of magic, even when it stares him in the face. Adam meanwhile is all to aware of the nature of the world, and that presumably includes his curse. It won't take much for him to realize that some attempt at forgiveness could free him from his torment and allow him to perhaps find a world that will accept him. And with this knowledge, he always chooses not to. He's aware of what he needs to do to be happy, and he deliberately chooses not to be so he can continue to torment Mordenheim. In a way, he is almost MORE evil than his creator.

I do not like it. It takes away from Mordenheim guilt.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Only semi-related, I prefer shared darklord-ship because I see Adam and Mordenheim as mirrors of each other. ... In a way, he is almost MORE evil than his creator.

How I see it Adam is the darklord because Mordenheim's soul resides in him, it was exchanged with what power animated his creation or probably it was split between him and his creation, that's why Adam feels the good doctors physical pain and Mordenheim feels the monster's existential anguish. This is the reason Mordenheim seems almost soul-less in the following picture. Also while Mordenheim has the knowledge and skill to reanimate the dead he lack's the originality or something else perhaps to do so, maybe because he is practically soul-less he may be obsessed with science but lacks the spark that created Adam. Adam on the other hand is able to create flesh golems as we know from Adam's Children but lacks the knowledge and skill to do so in a way to create something as "perfect" as him.





By the way I like the censorship in this one...

[tomokaicho]

How I see it Adam is the darklord because Mordenheim's soul resides in him, it was exchanged with what power animated his creation or probably it was split between him and his creation, that's why Adam feels the good doctors physical pain and Mordenheim feels the monster's existential anguish. This is the reason Mordenheim seems almost soul-less in the following picture. Also while Mordenheim has the knowledge and skill to reanimate the dead he lack's the originality or something else perhaps to do so, maybe because he is practically soul-less he may be obsessed with science but lacks the spark that created Adam. Adam on the other hand is able to create flesh golems as we know from Adam's Children but lacks the knowledge and skill to do so in a way to create something as "perfect" as him.

Definitely a possibility of a shared soul between Adam and Victor. That said, we know from the novel that the gods sent an evil soul into Adam, so it may be that Adam and Victor share two souls, Adam's evil soul sent by the gods, and Victor's soul.

On thing I liked about the original setting that was set aside in later products for medieval style church power was that the people of Ravenloft were superstitious but had very little real faith (obviously, there are exceptions). They had turned away from the gods, and the gods could not protect them. Or instead, they believed in false gods, which is the same outcome. In my campaign, I de-emphasise the power and influence of the Church of Ezra, relegating it to a cult, except in Borca, where it is the state religion (that doesn't mean that it can force people to believe - effectively, the citizens are forced to tithe to the church, believer or not).

Victor's godlessness is the cause of his current circumstances. Believing there are no gods, Victor refused to accept any limitations on his agency. Victor's false idol was not science, but himself.

By the way I like the censorship in this one...

Circling back to the beginning of this thread, the censorship does rather prove Adam's viability, if you know what I mean. I suspect that the creators of most flesh golems do not work to this level of detail.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Ah, but Victor did not want to create a flesh golem. He wanted to create a man. Moreover, he wanted to create life, in defiance of the gods he did not believe in.
I'm sure Adam is "equipped". He just has no practical use for it, as he is a flesh golem. Yet another reason for frustration, perhaps; the only children he can have are the flesh golems he cobbles together.

If Adam truly contains (part of) Mordenheim's soul, his creative drive, as Mephisto suggested, then his inability to have children must grate on him. Even Mordenheim wanted to reproduce, if only for Elise's sake.