Lord Soth's Skeletal Warriors: Mindless or Intelligent?

[tomokaicho]

I have been doing quite a bit of research and will probably be able to submit Lord Soth's 3.5e statblock for the next QtR. Whatever he did in any of the novels, he should be able to do in this statblock.

You can check this as well, a discussion we had some time ago on Soth's stats.
https://www.fraternityofshadows.com/for ... h&start=15

Interesting statblocks. Working in the Rose Knight PrC shows dedication. Probably the most poorly conceived prestige class of any officially licensed product.

The Solamnic Order works much better as a 3.5e Player's Handbook 2 style affiliation than a set of three prestige classes. Back in the 3E (3.0e) era of Dragon Magazine, there would be articles presenting character concepts mixing two or more classes. Fighter/Cleric seems to represent the Order of the Rose quite well in any era where there are real clerics. Soth likely never had any supernatural powers as a Rose Knight because in the time before the cataclysm, clerical powers were only possessed by a few.

What I am doing with my statblock is basing it on a streamlined version of the my death knight template that appeared in QtR #25, which was far too convoluted. So I can easily manage Soth's various powers and have him be a straight 17th level fighter.

In the other thread, you (or someone) raised topic of that flaming rod (or is it a light mace with the flaming weapon property?) that Soth has. Any information about that? Soth normally uses a greatsword, but he looks pretty cool with the flaming thingy in the art.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

In the other thread, you (or someone) raised topic of that flaming rod (or is it a light mace with the flaming weapon property?) that Soth has. Any information about that? Soth normally uses a greatsword, but he looks pretty cool with the flaming thingy in the art.

Rod of Elemental Fire in 2e

[tomokaicho]

Thanks. I can't find an equivalent item in 3.5e, and I even if I could, it's unclear whether Lord Soth could activate it. I'm inclined to just say it's a flaming light mace. It looks like that too.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Thanks. I can't find an equivalent item in 3.5e, and I even if I could, it's unclear whether Lord Soth could activate it. I'm inclined to just say it's a flaming light mace. It looks like that too.

It is a specific item held by Soth so you can just convert the one I sent for 3.5e
Why wouldn't Soth be able to activate it? his sword of wounding works as it is.
He would be able to summon a pyre elemental as well.

In 5e it is a Forsaken Brand

[tomokaicho]

Thanks. I can't find an equivalent item in 3.5e, and I even if I could, it's unclear whether Lord Soth could activate it. I'm inclined to just say it's a flaming light mace. It looks like that too.

It is a specific item held by Soth so you can just convert the one I sent for 3.5e
Why wouldn't Soth be able to activate it? his sword of wounding works as it is.
He would be able to summon a pyre elemental as well.

In 5e it is a Forsaken Brand

If the item is summoning creatures or throwing around fireballs, then Soth need to be able to activate it somehow. It's under the 3.5e item activation rules. He doesn't have any ranks in Use Magic Device.

Anyway, Forsaken Brand will work without activation. Seems reasonable, since it does look like a weapon. Forsaken Brand is a mace, right?

[alhoon]

Wait, Both the Death Knight AND Soth lost PWK?!?

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Wait, Both the Death Knight AND Soth lost PWK?!?

PWK · Paperwork;
PWK, Puppets Who Kill (TV show);
PWK, Power Word Kill (gaming, Dungeons & Dragons spell).

I guess its the last one...

Well in one of the 5e stats he has Word of Death which I guess its almost the same.

I am more inclined on him using the rod of elemental fire...
The story of him gaining it after a battle in the Plane of Fire sounds intriguing plus the following picture clearly shows that this is what he is using (though its size has to change from 3ft to 1ft.-1.5ft.)

[tomokaicho]

I am more inclined on him using the rod of elemental fire...
The story of him gaining it after a battle in the Plane of Fire sounds intriguing plus the following picture clearly shows that this is what he is using (though its size has to change from 3ft to 1ft.-1.5ft.)

I'm not opposed to a rod of elemental fire in other editions, but in 3.5e, Soth could not activate it's abilities without sufficient ranks in Use Magic Device.

The way I see it is like this: Soth's primary weapon in 3.5e is a greatsword. A greatsword is a two-handed sword. This is probably not very feasible for mounted combat, so it makes sense that he'd have a one handed weapon for fighting when mounted, and what better than a light mace for that?

Back to Soth's skeletal warriors: they ride nightmares, but I've never seen them fly into combat on the nightmares (unlike Soth). They are always on the ground. This indicates to me that they are lesser nightmares from the Planar Handbook. Using lesser nightmares keeps the skeletal warriors within the existing lore, while also preventing things from getting out of hand. It also creates a power differential between Soth and his knights, which is what you would expect.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

If the item is summoning creatures or throwing around fireballs, then Soth need to be able to activate it somehow. It's under the 3.5e item activation rules. He doesn't have any ranks in Use Magic Device.

Well changing his skills to have the Use Magic Device is really simple (it's not like it is a feat)

[tomokaicho]

If the item is summoning creatures or throwing around fireballs, then Soth need to be able to activate it somehow. It's under the 3.5e item activation rules. He doesn't have any ranks in Use Magic Device.

Well changing his skills to have the Use Magic Device is really simple (it's not like it is a feat)

It opens up a can of worms as to why Soth would have those ranks in UMD. In my opinion, when you have a cross edition contradiction, you just go with the base assumptions of the edition that you are using. In 2E I would go with the rod, in 3.5e, I just change it to a melee weapon. 5E seems to have done the same.

Soth already has some abilities, like fireball, and he definitely doesn't need to summon fire salamanders in 3.5e. So I would be going with the following: +1 flaming light mace (“Forsaken Brand”). The damage output is far lower than his +3 Greatsword (which I am calling “Despair's Wail”) so it is suitable for mounted combat.

EDIT: Speaking of stats controversies, this Redditor is unhappy with Lord Soth's 5E stats, which are apparently worse than a standard death knight.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

I just took a look at Knight of the Black Rose and confirmed that Soth's skeletal warriors do indeed ride nightmares in that. I am reaching the conclusion that a death knight's skeletal warrior is not really the same as a skeletal warrior created by a necromancer. The strong implication is that a death knight's skeletal warriors can summon nightmares, just like a death knight.

Alternatively Soth, who did have some contacts among the evil gods of Krynn and was at least familiar enough with tanar'ri not to want to mess with their leaders, could have arranged rides for his top enforcers.

I do recall that while in Sithicus, Soth and the boys rode on undead mounts, rather than planar ones. These, he could've animated himself, provided he found or otherwise acquired some dead horses.

[tomokaicho]

Alternatively Soth, who did have some contacts among the evil gods of Krynn and was at least familiar enough with tanar'ri not to want to mess with their leaders, could have arranged rides for his top enforcers.

Something like that is possible, I suppose. Its also the case that the skeletal warriors are supposed to be like lesser versions of the death knight, even if the mechanics to do represent that well.

I do recall that while in Sithicus, Soth and the boys rode on undead mounts, rather than planar ones. These, he could've animated himself, provided he found or otherwise acquired some dead horses.

Excellent memory. I just confirmed that it says the skeletal warriors ride undead mounts in Spectre of the Black Rose. That said, the general rule for Ravenloft is to alter existing abilities, not eliminate them altogether. So if Lord Soth has the ability to summon a nightmare, it makes sense to change some aspect of the ability rather than say that Soth can't summon a nightmare at all. I think the easiest way to handle it is to give the nightmares the mist subtype.

Mist Subtype

Creatures with the Mist subtype are either created by the Mists (Mistborn) or creatures captured by the Mists (Fugued). Once a creature has been captured by the Mists, it belongs to the Mists forever. No magic or other process can reverse this transformation. Mist subtype creatures gain the following traits:

— Mist Peering (Ex): As the feat (see Chapter Five).
— Low-light vision.
— Resistance to any two: acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, sonic 10.
— +4 racial bonus to Hide and Move Silently checks while in fog or mist.
— Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charm, domination, sleep and similar powers).
— Immunity to shape altering magic such as polymorph or petrification.
— Immunity to aging effects. This may mean that the Mist creature has perpetual youth, or that it may grow older, staying vital, but losing its youthful appearance

In this way, the nightmares are being summoned from the mists, not the Abyss. Ultimately, one has to pick and choose what lore one is to implement in a statblock. For example, one source has Lord Soth gating in the entire village of Kendralind (other sources do not speak to it). To implement this ability in a statblock is to tie yourself in knots. The gating in of Kendralind is the least important detail of the entire story. The important part is that Soth turned a Kender village into a pack of vampires. How the village got there is less important. I would say it was always there since the establishment of Sithicus, but perhaps hidden somehow. Anyway, I am coming along with my Lord Soth (and his skeletal warrior) statblocks. If someone else submits a Soth statblock in this QtR, that would be great, because my statblock relies on heavy homebrewing which might not be acceptable at some tables.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Personally, if I was stuck with Darklordship, I'd rather use an undead mount than a nightmare.
You can dip a dead horse in lye to burn off the stinky bits, then wire the bones together for extra sturdiness, and you'll have a completely obedient mount. (Cheap to feed, too; it'll happily eat the same hay over and over and never get fat or too full to run. )

A nightmare, meanwhile, is independently malicious and (unless bound by summoning or enchantment magic) may well have an agenda of its own, and could turn on you anytime it decides it's not down for the risks it's being told to take for your mission.
Besides, if you try to stable it, it'll probably set the barn on fire.

[tomokaicho]

Personally, if I was stuck with Darklordship, I'd rather use an undead mount than a nightmare.
You can dip a dead horse in lye to burn off the stinky bits, then wire the bones together for extra sturdiness, and you'll have a completely obedient mount. (Cheap to feed, too; it'll happily eat the same hay over and over and never get fat or too full to run. )

This is for weak, LIVING necromancers with a delicate nose. When you are an undead feudal lord taxing peasants, you want a zombie horse that just reeks.

A nightmare, meanwhile, is independently malicious and (unless bound by summoning or enchantment magic) may well have an agenda of its own, and could turn on you anytime it decides it's not down for the risks it's being told to take for your mission.
Besides, if you try to stable it, it'll probably set the barn on fire.

In some 2E sources, they the nightmares were stabled in Dargaard Keep on Krynn. But in 3.5e, it just looks like a summoning so the nightmare is unlikely to cause any trouble.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

As undead feudal lord, I do not want flies and other scavenging pests disturbing the serenity of my tomb/fortress/temple/library/whatever.
Nor do I want to unnecessarily disturb the populace, that just ends in pitchforks and tears. (Also, I don't want to get zombie ick on my stately robes of state.)
Into the lye they go, and don't come out until the flesh is gone!