Chronologizing the Ambrose Compound...

[onmyoji]

Hey all!

I've been looking at the possibility of inserting the Ambrose Compound (see http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Jonathan_Ambrose and http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Calum_Songmaster) into my FoG campaign. I don't currently know much about it aside from what I found in Mistipedia and Gaz 1. I understand that it appears in the much-reviled Death of a Darklord, which I'd rather not read if I don't have to, based on the reviews archived on this site.

My big question for anyone that might know is this: Does anyone have an approximation for year the compound is founded? Or the year that Death of a Darklord (or any event in its plot) occurs? Since most of 2E/3E Kartakass centers on FoG, I'd be surprised if the compound was yet to be founded by that point in history. It seems like the associated Brotherhood of Broken Blades was founded in c. 696-697 BC (per extrapolation from Gaz. 1), but that doesn't necessarily mean the Ambrose compound had been established yet, or that the plot of Death of a Darklord had occurred already.

So yeah, if anyone can give me any kind of clues to chronologizing either the Ambrose compound, any of the characters associated with it, or Death of a Darklord, that would be great. I am well aware that I can make it happen whenever I want to. It's just if there is any canonical (or even fan-canonical in QtR, etc.) information that can help me out, I'd prefer to completely exhaust those options first.

Thanks!

— onmyoji

[onmyoji]

Addendum: Not sure if it helps, but looking over Gaz. 1 again, it describes Jonathan Ambrose as a widower, which means that his wife, Tereza—killed near the end of DoaD—must have been dead by S's sojourn to Kartakass in 756. So I guess DoaD must take place between Feast of Goblyns in 735 and Gaz 1 being penned in 756.

That still doesn't tell me when the Ambrose Compound was established though. Anyone else have something fun to offer on this? Thanks in advance.

— onmyoji

[Mephisto of the FoS]

There is no reference anywhere for the date I think, but I believe the events of Death of a Darklord are after the Grand Conjunction cause the Ravenloft Logo in the book is the same as that from the Red Box, before the Red box the Ravenloft logo was pointy.

Usually the Ravenloft products were following a real-world timeline based on when they were published. Since it was published in 1995 and before the Requiem campaign. I would place the events of DoaD around 744BC and 747 BC (Howls in the Night was published in 1994 and takes place in 743 BC, When the Black Roses Bloom takes place in 744 and was published in 1995, Circle of Darkness published in 1995 takes place in 745 BC while the Evil Eye adventure is set up in 747 BC). So if the Ambrose Compound existed between 744 BC and 747 BC it gives you the freedom to place it's creation before the Grand Conjuction.

I would personally place it's creation after the appearance and disappearance of Daglan (Feast of Goblyns) in 736 BC making this "cataclysmic" event the reason for the formation of the witch-hunter group, similar the Inqusition in Tepest forming after the disappearance/displacement of G'Henna and Markovia leaving behind the Shadow Rift.

[onmyoji]

There is no reference anywhere for the date I think, but I believe the events of Death of a Darklord are after the Grand Conjunction cause the Ravenloft Logo in the book is the same as that from the Red Box, before the Red box the Ravenloft logo was pointy.

Usually the Ravenloft products were following a real-world timeline based on when they were published. Since it was published in 1995 and before the Requiem campaign. I would place the events of DoaD around 744BC and 747 BC (Howls in the Night was published in 1994 and takes place in 743 BC, When the Black Roses Bloom takes place in 744 and was published in 1995, Circle of Darkness published in 1995 takes place in 745 BC while the Evil Eye adventure is set up in 747 BC). So if the Ambrose Compound existed between 744 BC and 747 BC it gives you the freedom to place it's creation before the Grand Conjuction.

I would personally place it's creation after the appearance and disappearance of Daglan (Feast of Goblyns) in 736 BC making this "cataclysmic" event the reason for the formation of the witch-hunter group, similar the Inqusition in Tepest forming after the disappearance/displacement of G'Henna and Markovia leaving behind the Shadow Rift.

Good to know. I was originally going to have it available after FoG, but now the new 5E book says something about witches hanging out in the Kartakan forests (which provides a great detail more background than just having werewolves and wolfweres everywhere), so I'm wondering if perhaps they're the reason the Ambrose Compound gets founded.

Gonna look into it further and see what I can find. There might be some clues buried in the novel too. It's easy to write a book with no dates, but it's a lot harder to avoid saying how long it's been since something happened. Eventually I might be able to find a keystone event to tie things to......

Thanks—as always—for the help!

— onmyoji

[onmyoji]

So I skimmed parts of Death of a Darklord. If I'm reading this right, I have the following data.

First, the Kartakass Gazetteer says:

• — Jonathan Ambrose is "elderly," and portrayed as no longer able to really fight. (he "last lifted a sword years ago")
  — Elaine Clairm is in her "mid-thirties."
  — Elaine gained arcane magic fifteen years ago.

Since Gazetteer 1 was compiled in 756, that means Elaine got her magic in 741. From what I can tell, this happens right in the beginning of Death of a Darklord, setting it in 741—not far from Mephisto's estimation of 744.

Other points of order:

• — Since Elaine is 18 in the novel, that means she was born in 723. In 756, she'd be 33, which still fits the "mid thirties" description in Gaz. 1.
  — Johnathan is "almost fifty" when Death of a Darklord opens, seeming to leave it open how long his compound has been in operation. If DoaD takes place in 741, then Ambrose would be "almost sixty-five" by the same estimation.
  — It makes sense for Harkon to try a scheme to escape (however futile) after the failure of all darklords to escape during the Grand Conjunction.

I have not read far enough into DoaD to determine if the magic Elaine starts with is the same as the "arcane magic" she "gained" according to the Gazetteer (Mistipedia leads me to believe it's the ones she starts the novel with), but for now, I'm assuming it is. I have also not read far enough to be able to determine if the story takes place over more than a year. However, so far (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), it looks like it at least starts in 741.

As always, if anyone has any other info to contribute, please feel free to!

— onmyoji

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I had forgotten to attach the logos...

[onmyoji]

Oh, interesting. I knew about the logo change, but I was never sure when exactly it happened. I honestly like the point at the bottom better. But that's just me.

— onmyoji

[Mephisto of the FoS]

5e Kartakass I guess is really different having witches in the wolf infested forests. I guess it is inspired by "Witches Sabbath" in the germanic forests. But then again Kartakass is no longer Austria based.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5fH2FOn1V5g

Maybe they writters confused it with Mary Poppins...

Also Ambrose was a wondering adventurer for many years, at some point I guess he decided to set a base with his comrades in arms, so I believe having him set up base in Kartakass after the events of the ending of FoG is kind of logical. Don't forget that Radaga took all her undead and entered the Mists creating Daglan, tghen Daglan disappears. Such an event would surely make a witch hunter blame magic users for these events and setting up a base there to protect the land from a similar event.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Oh, interesting. I knew about the logo change, but I was never sure when exactly it happened. I honestly like the point at the bottom better. But that's just me.

This is just an assumption I had made then, after the Red Box appeared, as the new logo was used after the red box, but I guess it could be credible.

[onmyoji]

Don't forget that Radaga took all her undead and entered the Mists creating Daglan, tghen Daglan disappears. Such an event would surely make a witch hunter blame magic users for these events and setting up a base there to protect the land from a similar event.

I'm very much aware of that, but I'm sort of switching things up for my own FoG to get better narrative options. Rather than having Radaga alive, I'm planning on having her be brought back to life by some witches in the forest. Ambrose might be around, but he might not have formally established the compound yet. But her resurrection might well be enough reason to cause Ambrose to set up shop. And also put her on Harkon's radar.

Using the throwaway 5E info as inspiration to set up three different "factions" that the characters get mixed up in: the werewolves, the wolfweres, and the witches. Part of the reason I'm trying to figure out Ambrose is to see if Coraline can report to Harkon on Radaga's resurrection (even though he already knows, I'd like the players to find a letter mentioning it). We'll see how it works!

— onmyoji

[Gautsu]

The magic Elaine gets in the book is the magic they talk about in the Gaz.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

The magic Elaine gets in the book is the magic they talk about in the Gaz.

I had made the assumption that since the book was written when 2e was on, that this book was like an introduction (not official) to the sorcerer/ss class that appeared in 3e.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

For whatever it's worth, the first product with the new logo was Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium Appendix II, from November 1993. Roots of Evil, the module where the GC actually happens was earlier that year, in April, and the Red Box was May of 1994. So the logo change was around the time of the GC, but not precisely aligned with it.

For other surrounding dates:
VRGttV: next product after DoaD is July 1995, published 742 in-game.
Chilling Tales: last product before DoaD, June 1995 takes place throughout Van Richten's career, but the adventures are supposed to be arranged chronologically, and the last adventure (Taskmaster's Leash) doesn't have a date other than it being post-740.

The Real-year=Ravenloft-year chronology doesn't always hold up to scrutiny, but can be a good starting point.

[onmyoji]

The magic Elaine gets in the book is the magic they talk about in the Gaz.

Thanks. I had only text-searched the book for certain phrases, so I couldn't be certain there wasn't some point C years later that she got some greater surge of arcane power.

This being said, it seems pretty clear DoaD takes place in 741. Good to have that one nailed down. (Assuming no others have any additional info/criticisms.)

— onmyoji

[onmyoji]

For whatever it's worth, the first product with the new logo was Ravenloft Monstrous Compendium Appendix II, from November 1993. Roots of Evil, the module where the GC actually happens was earlier that year, in April, and the Red Box was May of 1994. So the logo change was around the time of the GC, but not precisely aligned with it.

For other surrounding dates:
VRGttV: next product after DoaD is July 1995, published 742 in-game.
Chilling Tales: last product before DoaD, June 1995 takes place throughout Van Richten's career, but the adventures are supposed to be arranged chronologically, and the last adventure (Taskmaster's Leash) doesn't have a date other than it being post-740.

The Real-year=Ravenloft-year chronology doesn't always hold up to scrutiny, but can be a good starting point.

Good to know! This is very useful information. Thanks!

— onmyoji