Some Vecna confusion... caused by the JWM Timeline??

[onmyoji]

Hey all!

So I'm revisiting Vecna quickly for campaign reasons. The relevant modules suggest that Vecna spends 10 Oerth years in the Domains of Dread (581-591 CY). However, Mistipedia seems to be somewhat confusing on his this works within Ravenloft.

The article on the Burning Peaks cluster (http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Cat ... ning_Peaks) has a mini timeline for this. The relevant parts include the following:

— 732 BC- (Oerth, 581 CY): Vecna tries to become a greater god but fails and is driven from the Material Plane. Unknown to Vecna, the actions of his avatar links him to the Demiplane of Dread.
— 750 BC - The Burning Peaks cluster forms as the Mists capture both Vecna and Kas.
— 751 BC - By this year, the names of Vecna and Kas are known and fear [sic] throughout the Land of Mists.
— 751 BC - Led by Vocar the Obedient, the Cult of Vecna in Tovag attempt to grant their deity a rebirth in the newborn child of Marit. However, adventurers thwart their attempt.
— 753 BC or Later: Iuz the Old and his minions invade Cavitius, falling into Vecna's trap. Vecna escapes Raveloft by absorbing the essence of Iuz and, in the process of becoming a greater god, uses the planar fabric of Ravenloft to burrow into Sigil. However, he is thwarted there once again.

So...... Vecna is in the Domains of Dread, but it takes 18 years for the Mists to capture him? The 732 entry states that "date conversion taken from JWM Ravenloft Timeline p. 2,30, based on timeline dates for Azalin in From the Shadows and King of the Dead." The "Domains of Dread" book and "Vecna Lives!" module are also both cited for this entry, but as far as I'm aware, the latter gives only the CY date, not a BC date. Looking at "Domains of Dread," nothing is mentioned of Vecna in 732, and there is no entry for such in its timeline. DoD's timeline mentions Vecna's appearance in Ravenloft only in 750. (From the Shadows and King of the Dead provide 391 CY as an equivalent for 542 CY, but nothing else relevant to the discussion.)

I've heard of the JWM timeline, but haven't examined it yet, as I've given official sources priority. Doesn't this strange 18-year anomaly cast some doubt upon it though? It might assume that one CY year is equivalent to one BC year, which is fine (I assume the same for my campaign), but I think giving Vecna 18 extra years in Ravenloft seems to be a bit more of an issue.

Comments? What do you all think?

— onmyoji


P.S. In the timeline for my own campaign, I have rectified this by coordinating 581 CY with 750 BC instead, as this seems to be a much more methodically sound keystone with which to connect the two calendrical systems. As a result, this does mean that Azalin would technically spend eighteen fewer years as a lich in Oerth before the Mists take him to Ravenloft, but seeing as though the relevant chapters of King of the Dead are painted with excessively broad strokes in terms of chronology, it is hardly a loss at all. As far as I can tell, the figures and events appearing in Azalin's final Oerthian year are not interrelated to anything else happening in Oerth, so pushing them 18 years earlier is hardly problematic. And besides, he's already a lich, so the passage of time has little meaning for him or his story. Eighteen years at that point might as well be functionally equivalent to eighteen minutes.

At least it beats doing the math to figure out a real chronology in which every 208 Barovian years equate to 190 Oerthian common years.

[TwiceBorn Reborn]

As a long absent DM returning to the game, and also as a fan of Greyhawk (which I will probably run before Ravenloft), your questions intrigue me a great deal.

[DustBunny]

There is one very important difference in the description between DoD and JWM timelines:

***
DoD: 732 BC- (Oerth, 581 CY): Unknown to Vecna, the actions of his avatar links him to the Demiplane of Dread.

JWM: 732BC ... Unbeknownst to him, Vecna's actions create a link between himself and the Prime Material Plane, which will leave him vunerable to the Mists (581CY)
***

The slight change in wording could explain the time difference. Vecna was somewhere else, and after 18 years finally made it back to the Prime, only to be grabbed by the Mists because he now fell into their reach. Or maybe he was lost in the Ethereal for that time and stumbled into the demiplane and was caught.

Of course the real reasons are that the various campaign timelines were created with their own independant timeline canon, and wouldn't even attempt to synch up until much much later. Thus any attempt to match events from one point, will always result in other event points that dont fit.

The solution? Just ride with what a certain Gallifreyian says...

“People assume time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimey ...... stuff”

[KingCorn]

One thing to always keep in mind: the mists don't play by conventional rules of time. They can send you home after decades of confinement and it will have been only a week on the outside, one of the Vistani tasques literarlly see's time as their toy, and of course the weird ball of time warps that is Castle ApBlanc. Not to mention, Vecna being a god means he probably experiences time much different than we do.

[onmyoji]

There is one very important difference in the description between DoD and JWM timelines:

***
DoD: 732 BC- (Oerth, 581 CY): Unknown to Vecna, the actions of his avatar links him to the Demiplane of Dread.

JWM: 732BC ... Unbeknownst to him, Vecna's actions create a link between himself and the Prime Material Plane, which will leave him vunerable to the Mists (581CY)
***

The slight change in wording could explain the time difference. Vecna was somewhere else, and after 18 years finally made it back to the Prime, only to be grabbed by the Mists because he now fell into their reach. Or maybe he was lost in the Ethereal for that time and stumbled into the demiplane and was caught.

Except that from what I can tell, Domains of Dread NEVER ONCE mentions 732 B.C. whatsoever. I've scoured the entire book, and the only references I can find to the chronology of Vecna unanimously point to 750 B.C., when the Burning Peaks cluster is first created. There is nothing about a link between Vecna and the Domains of Dread. What you are talking about is the difference between how Mistipedia wrote the text and how JWM wrote the text. Both of which are fan-made sources.

My point is that the 732 Vecna entry date seems to be invented by the JWM timeline based solely on Azalin's chronology. No official Ravenloft product seems to support that date whatsoever.

Of course, every DM is free to do as he pleases, and can adopt the wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey thing as they see fit. But those like me who prefer to avoid such chronological abuses (my Vistani even live linearly like every single other creature) should at the very least be able to ascertain that the 732 date was invented only to rectify the disparity between the timelines.

Besides, I think I've made a much better case for just removing 18 of Azalin's lich years for those who want a one-to-one matchup for the timelines, and changing his 391 attack on Innspa to 373. From what I can tell, virtually nothing is lost from doing this. Besides, it seems that Azalin was created as a wholly Ravenloft character. I've yet to find a solidly Greyhawk timeline online that even so much as acknowledges that Azalin was a thing. Vecna on the other hand......

— onmyoji

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

The intro to JWM's timeline indicates that he used the dates in Azalin's background in From the Shadows/Roots of Evil to align the Greyhawk year with the Ravenloft year. It seems like the 732 year for Vecna is a result of applying that alignment to the GH year from Vecna Lives. It's not a date you'll find in any book, as far as I can tell. If you want to be strict about such things and not allow for different rates of time in the two worlds, you have to either move Vecna's date, move Azalin's dates, or say that it took 18 years for the Mists to fully grab Vecna.

[onmyoji]

The intro to JWM's timeline indicates that he used the dates in Azalin's background in From the Shadows/Roots of Evil to align the Greyhawk year with the Ravenloft year. It seems like the 732 year for Vecna is a result of applying that alignment to the GH year from Vecna Lives. It's not a date you'll find in any book, as far as I can tell. If you want to be strict about such things and not allow for different rates of time in the two worlds, you have to either move Vecna's date, move Azalin's dates, or say that it took 18 years for the Mists to fully grab Vecna.

Yeah, that's more or less what I was trying to draw attention to. Though secondarily, I did want to make a better case for using Vecna's date of entry as the chronological keystone, rather than Azalin's (or at least for players not dealing with merely one or the other). If Azalin enters Ravenloft 18 Greyhawk years earlier, from what I can tell, nothing really changes (though I would be happy to be proven wrong by someone much more knowledgeable on Greyhawk matters than I).

Alternately, if Vecna ends up entering Ravenloft 18 Ravenloft years earlier in 732 B.C., I at least would find myself much more vexed to explain the 18-year limbo, or otherwise how an undoubtedly evil almost-god can get trapped in a demiplane for 18 years before getting his own domain. Especially since the module that brings him to Ravenloft is largely immobile within the Greyhawk chronology as eight very prominent people are killed by him in that specific year, which has far-reaching implications on the whole timeline.

Anyway, just my thoughts.

— onmyoji

[Mephisto of the FoS]

how an undoubtedly evil almost-god can get trapped in a demiplane for 18 years before getting his own domain.

Bare in mind that immortal or semi-immortal beings like undead have a diiferent perception of time. In the 2007 drama science fiction film The Man from Earth. The protagonists a more than 14,000 years old man explains how he perceives time. He sais something similar to "years for me are like the waves of the sea". So 18 years for an immortal being would just fly by compared to the life Vecna has lived or un-lived.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Yeah, that's more or less what I was trying to draw attention to. Though secondarily, I did want to make a better case for using Vecna's date of entry as the chronological keystone, rather than Azalin's (or at least for players not dealing with merely one or the other).

My guess at why JWM chose Azalin instead is just a question of multiple dates in Azalin's story, and the explicit inclusion of both GH years and RL years in the same product. Also, it was established first, before Domains of Dread came along with the date of Cavitius's formation. If anything, I'd argue that the authors of DoD goofed, and should have made the burning peaks form in 732. Changing that from 750 seems to do the least damage to any timelines. Maybe make 750 the year of first contact with the cluster by anyone from another domain. The cluster could have been floating out there, fully formed, but undiscovered for those 18 years.

[onmyoji]

That's not a bad idea either. The only reason I didn't consider it myself is that during the GC, everyone is technically freed for a short time. While those like Strahd and Azalin surely can't escape being recaptured once the conjunction collapses, I feel that Vecna is very much a different case in that regard (especially since he does actually escape in time).

But it's a good point I hadn't considered nonetheless. I guess every DM has to go from whatever angle they need to primarily focus on. Thanks for the perspective.

— onmyoji

[TwiceBorn Reborn]

The end of Vecna Lives! does not explicitly specify what happens to either Iuz or Vecna if they are hurled through the gateway at Tovag Baragu on Oerth. It merely says:

If the characters succeed in expelling the evil pair, the two plunge into the darkness, howling and tearing at each other. A great gout of flame rushes up and bursts out of the gate, sending a fiery blast 40 feet long and ten feet wide. (Vecna Lives! p. 67)

There's no explicit indication of their respective fates immediately after that event. We know that Iuz is active on Oerth again shortly thereafter in a very big way from CY 581-585 (see the events depicted in the Greyhawk Falcon series, Howl from the North, Five Shall Be One, and the Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes boxed sets), and that Vecna eventually ends up in Ravenloft.

The intro to Vecna Reborn states:

Kas eventually betrayed Vecna, resulting in both their deaths--and inadvertently saving Oerth. But because evil such as theirs can never completely fade, Vecna arose again, this time as a demigod. His servant and betrayer Kas returned as a powerful vampire. Again, the two struggled, Kas seeking to regain his powerful sword and Vecna laying plans for becoming supreme even among the gods. Both were eventually claimed by the Mists of Ravenloft and given their own bordering domains, where they struggle to this day. (Vecna Reborn, p. 2)

Vecna Lives! allows for the possibility that the PCs give Kas his sword back when they encounter him as a prisoner of Citadel Cavitius, which he could then use to escape the citadel and the negative quasi-plane of Ash. Although meant to summarize the events that occurred before Vecna Lives!, the above passage from Vecna Reborn can also be interpreted as suggesting that Vecna resumed his hunt for Kas after the conclusion of Vecna Lives!, but prior to the pair being sucked into Ravenloft.

Between having to find his way back from wherever the portal at Tovag Baragu (on Oerth) blasted him, to resuming his cross-planar hunt for Kas (who clearly wanted to avoid confronting Vecna in Vecna Lives!), I can easily imagine any number of years (0-18) before the Mists captured the pair... as others have said, 18 years is but a blink of an eye to a being that is a lich-turned-demigod. There is nothing inherent in the events of Vecna Lives! that would have made the conclusion of that module THE one and only time that would have brought the pair to the attention of the Dark Powers (and time runs in peculiar ways when you aren't on the Prime Material plane). Much could have continued to go on off-stage for the 18 intervening years (Vecna also has followers on Toril and who knows how many other worlds) to finally convince the DPs in 750BC that the time was right for having fun with the big V... and then, a short while later, they found out they bit off more than they could chew.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, it also seems that Azalin had no knowledge that Vecna had been granted a domain within Ravenloft right up to the point where he vaporized himself during the Grim Harvest in 750 BC. Seems to me that when someone as powerful as Vecna is granted a domain, the two people most likely to know about it are Strahd and Azalin.

All that to say... 750 BC as the date when Vecna and Kas were drawn into Ravenloft works for this anal (where timelines are concerned!) Greyhawk/Ravenloft fan...

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Couldn't the Mists just have shifted Vecna through time, just to mess with him and everyone who knew about him?

[TwiceBorn Reborn]

Couldn't the Mists just have shifted Vecna through time, just to mess with him and everyone who knew about him?

Just as valid.

The Mists are very useful and convenient that way.

[onmyoji]

The end of Vecna Lives! does not explicitly specify what happens to either Iuz or Vecna if they are hurled through the gateway at Tovag Baragu on Oerth. It merely says:

If the characters succeed in expelling the evil pair, the two plunge into the darkness, howling and tearing at each other. A great gout of flame rushes up and bursts out of the gate, sending a fiery blast 40 feet long and ten feet wide. (Vecna Lives! p. 67)

There's no explicit indication of their respective fates immediately after that event. We know that Iuz is active on Oerth again shortly thereafter in a very big way from CY 581-585 (see the events depicted in the Greyhawk Falcon series, Howl from the North, Five Shall Be One, and the Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes boxed sets), and that Vecna eventually ends up in Ravenloft.

The intro to Vecna Reborn states:

Kas eventually betrayed Vecna, resulting in both their deaths--and inadvertently saving Oerth. But because evil such as theirs can never completely fade, Vecna arose again, this time as a demigod. His servant and betrayer Kas returned as a powerful vampire. Again, the two struggled, Kas seeking to regain his powerful sword and Vecna laying plans for becoming supreme even among the gods. Both were eventually claimed by the Mists of Ravenloft and given their own bordering domains, where they struggle to this day. (Vecna Reborn, p. 2)

Vecna Lives! allows for the possibility that the PCs give Kas his sword back when they encounter him as a prisoner of Citadel Cavitius, which he could then use to escape the citadel and the negative quasi-plane of Ash. Although meant to summarize the events that occurred before Vecna Lives!, the above passage from Vecna Reborn can also be interpreted as suggesting that Vecna resumed his hunt for Kas after the conclusion of Vecna Lives!, but prior to the pair being sucked into Ravenloft.

Between having to find his way back from wherever the portal at Tovag Baragu (on Oerth) blasted him, to resuming his cross-planar hunt for Kas (who clearly wanted to avoid confronting Vecna in Vecna Lives!), I can easily imagine any number of years (0-18) before the Mists captured the pair... as others have said, 18 years is but a blink of an eye to a being that is a lich-turned-demigod. There is nothing inherent in the events of Vecna Lives! that would have made the conclusion of that module THE one and only time that would have brought the pair to the attention of the Dark Powers (and time runs in peculiar ways when you aren't on the Prime Material plane). Much could have continued to go on off-stage for the 18 intervening years (Vecna also has followers on Toril and who knows how many other worlds) to finally convince the DPs in 750BC that the time was right for having fun with the big V... and then, a short while later, they found out they bit off more than they could chew.

Wow! Thanks for that in-depth assessment. Yeah, if I had to give Vecna 18 more years, having him track down Kas while being neither on Oerth nor in Ravenloft would make the most amount of sense, for sure.

Also, unless I'm mistaken, it also seems that Azalin had no knowledge that Vecna had been granted a domain within Ravenloft right up to the point where he vaporized himself during the Grim Harvest in 750 BC. Seems to me that when someone as powerful as Vecna is granted a domain, the two people most likely to know about it are Strahd and Azalin.

All that to say... 750 BC as the date when Vecna and Kas were drawn into Ravenloft works for this anal (where timelines are concerned!) Greyhawk/Ravenloft fan...

As far as I know, you're not mistaken. That's also one of the major reasons I don't see the 732 Ravenloft entry date as in any way feasible. One could argue that neither Strahd nor Azalin have ever had any perfect ways of understanding what happens in other domains without actively seeking out that information. And one could argue that the Burning Peaks cluster was probably quite far from Darkon and Barovia. Those are at least decently convincing explanations.

But I'm still going to use the Vecna date as the keystone and eliminate 18 lich-years from Azalin's Oerth time. Does that create any Greyhawk inconsistencies, TwiceBorn Reborn? So far, nothing I've read in Greyhawk ever even mentions Azalin. Even online timelines never mention him. Would making him attack Innspa 18 years earlier really cause any Oerthian issue whatsoever? I would be really really really interested in hearing more about this.

Couldn't the Mists just have shifted Vecna through time, just to mess with him and everyone who knew about him?

Yes, but as I said before, I personally abhor that sort of workaround. To me, it just comes off as lazy writing (or lack thereof). If it were me, I'd prefer to find some much more detailed and believable—if extravagant—explanation for the 18 years in which Vecna is apparently neither on Oerth nor in Ravenloft. But I'd sooner accept that there's no one-to-one ratio of Barovian years to Oerthian ones. I'd much rather do the math and figure out conversions than chalk it all up to "wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey" stuff. Of course, other DMs' mileage can and will vary. Just personally, I prefer having as many rock-solid explanations lined up as possible.

Further, while I clearly haven't used the only possible equation of Barovian years to Oerthian years to Dale Reckoning (BC to CY being Vecna-centered, rather than Azalin-centered), the system I have so far works one-to-one for all systems AND provides a number of literally perfect correspondences, and I couldn't have hoped for a better matchup, given what my players will go through. I'll share some of those correspondences here if there is interest. Just let me know.

— onmyoji

[Resonant Curse]

On the quicker explanation side you could always say it took 18 years for the Dark Powers to fully entrap Vecna and he was essentially "off screen" but not in the Demiplane of Dread until the power struggle finished.