What would you want in an official 5e Ravenloft setting?

[Five]

So, like Curse of Strahd, then.
The book itself isn't banged-up and aged like you'd like (and yeah, that would be cool, but logistically costly), but the interior art is pretty top-notch and mood-fitting, despite it's polished-ness....

Haha Touche. Though in my (statement's) defence those two pictures are probably two of six (eight?) that meet my (la dee da?) criteria. There is still a massive amount of NPC character art. That's a good thing, but not if it outnumbers the setting of mood in a setting that wants you to focus on mood.

More like those, yes. The attempt was there but came up a bit short, imo. Not the quality of art, but its secondary purpose. Good start for sure.

And I didn't mean actually, physically beat up the book (though that would be cool in a prop kinda way!), I meant bang it askew from the rest of the current line's focus/presentation. Make it its own. Standalone (ideally, like Domains of Dread as I believe somebody else mentioned), or standalone but alongside the core books.

[ewancummins]

(No more pirate elf Strahd! Remember him?)

LOL! Good point, bro, good point.

As much as the youthful and rather effeminate CoS Strahd strikes me as all wrong, Pirate Elf Strahd was worse.
For me, the best Strahd is Old Strahd from the cover art of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft. The Caldwell pics are good, too.

[Five]

I'm going to regret this, but the anticipation of laughter, even a groan, is too great...

Pirate elf Strahd?

[Cromstar]

I'm going to regret this, but the anticipation of laughter, even a groan, is too great...

Pirate elf Strahd?

I suspect its this one:




...I am literally at a loss here. Why the pointed ears? Edit: Let me rephrase that, since he's often got pointy ears. Why such an *emphasis* on the ears in the art to look like elf ears?

[ewancummins]

I'm going to regret this, but the anticipation of laughter, even a groan, is too great...

Pirate elf Strahd?

I suspect its this one:




...I am literally at a loss here. Why the pointed ears? Edit: Let me rephrase that, since he's often got pointy ears. Why such an *emphasis* on the ears in the art to look like elf ears?

The Fabulous Vampirate of Lake Baratok!

And we were told he never sparkles. Heh.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Haha Touche. Though in my (statement's) defence those two pictures are probably two of six (eight?) that meet my (la dee da?) criteria. There is still a massive amount of NPC character art. That's a good thing, but not if it outnumbers the setting of mood in a setting that wants you to focus on mood.

More like those, yes. The attempt was there but came up a bit short, imo. Not the quality of art, but its secondary purpose. Good start for sure.

I'll never say no to more art, particularly more like that. But I am also a big fan of the NPC art. I really like being able to tell the PCs: "You enter the room and see... this guy." and then put the picture up on my DM's screen.

And I didn't mean actually, physically beat up the book (though that would be cool in a prop kinda way!), I meant bang it askew from the rest of the current line's focus/presentation. Make it its own. Standalone (ideally, like Domains of Dread as I believe somebody else mentioned), or standalone but alongside the core books.

Even that is going to be a hard ask. I suspect there's a drive to keep the whole D&D line conforming to a brand "look." Maybe it can stretch a bit for a different setting, but it's still gotta be recognizable on a LGS shelf as belonging with the rest of the line. The more they commit to multiple products, the more that might stretch. But if it's only a one-off, not going to happen, I think. (Again, I'd love to see it too, but I wouldn't bet on it.)

[Jester of the FoS]

CoS didn't shy away from dark topics, and it's certainly possible for horror to thrive alongside sensitivity.

I always thought of horror, entertainment horror, as the willingness of some to manipulate (not torture) the pressure points of their audience. The du jour sensitivities of joe and jane public, if you will. If that is a truth outside of my head then how can that be done in a rpg from, arguably, the world's finest?

A mature product line (see half serious above) could open up some doors (officially bring horror tools to D&D, classic horror where stereotypes are more important than the names of the characters), but close others (RL could become equally unrecognisable, and certain players, ages, and sensibilities will be for all intents and purposes outed).

But you're right. Ravenloft exists today and never officially equipped us with such tools, so the parallel track system does work for the most part.

Just wanted to call out that in Curse of Strahd they have hags kidnapping children that they bake into pies and sell in the street, as seen by one of the earlier pictures.
The PCs can literally be tricked into engaging in child cannibalism.

There's no shortage of horror in CoS or even Rime of the Frost Maiden. And anyone who has watched the story lead, Chris Perkins, as he DMs knows he does not hold back and will bring the pain, squick, and horror. And has been good since 2e when he wrote several Ravenloft adventures for Dungeon Magazine.
And the wholly new intro-adventure to Cos (Death House) is quite good.

D&D 5e firmly hits the PG-13 mark. But even in 2e it was never the hard-R of other RPGs like Vampire the Masquerade.

[Jester of the FoS]

I thought I posted here, but internet goblins must have eaten my post.

Q: What do I want want in an official 5e Ravenloft setting?
A: I already have Ravenloft 5e. Heroes of the Mist.
It's pretty much the product I wanted. Because if I wanted something additional, I would have added more.
(And, to be entirely and egregiously selfish, if they do an official book, it will cut into my PDF sales. And I need that money for food. And booze. )

That said, I really like 5e. It's a solid system that is really good for Ravenloft. They could do a very nice Ravenloft expansion for the system.
PCs are powerful but not so potent a monster can't be terrifying. Legendary monsters in particular. And even at high levels, PCs aren't so amazing they become gods and can't be threatened.
It easily accepts customizations and tweaks for horror, madness, power checks, and the like. Because the game has a softer rules focus than 3e/4e there's more room for the DM to take the reins and add some uncertainty. Attunement keeps magic items in check, and the system works well with limited enchanted gear.

Looking at the past D&D 5e settings... I think we pretty much already have the 5e Ravenloft setting book: Curse of Strahd. The only difference between it and some of the MtG settings or Eberron is the longer adventure and fewer monsters. An official book would very likely just focus on Barovia, namedrop the rest of the Core, and double as a monster expansion.
They very likely wouldn't expanded out as much as past campaign settings.

I've said before that what I really want isn't a new setting book, but a horror monster book focused on the standard gothic/ 'Loft foes as well as advice on making boss monsters, villains, and hacking monsters. A Van Richten's Guide to Horrors.

[ewancummins]

D&D 5e firmly hits the PG-13 mark. But even in 2e it was never the hard-R of other RPGs like Vampire the Masquerade.

PG-13 is a great place to be if the goal is to appeal to young adults and their parents. I suspect only a very small number of kids are actually playing the game, and it's much more college age and up, but I could be wrong. It's just a guess.

I like the PG 13 approach and typically adopt it myself, although a couple of my games have run into R territory.
I go PG or even G when gaming with younger kids, of course. And one can toggle how graphic or disturbing things are in a tabletop game or PbP by dialing up or down description.

[Five]

Another wish from my wishlist. The quote is just to keep it in context.

Make it/keep it a morality game. Create a "good" version of the Powers Check, or blend both into a moral score, possibly even eliminating/replacing traditional alignments (as has been discussed at least a few times on this message board) to further promote setting ideal of PCs being intended to be those one percenters who actually stand up to the suffocating evil of the demiplane. They are not the majority that just walk away, nor the minority that stops to record evil being played out! Maintain emphasis in regards to DMs annexing PCs whose corruption levels get too high. A system like this would still be a backdoor for those groups that want to go all in to playing out evil (a PC turned DL is a very personal and detailed NPC to be sure), but it's outside the box when it comes to official endorsement.

Expand on the Fear, Horror, and Madness rules as found in the DMG and utilise Sanity. Not too much needs to be done here but a few things can be done to help maintain and establish the flavour of the setting. That alignment that we just banished? Bring it back in when PCs fail Madness checks and/or their Sanity drops into the red (I'd prefer that particular ability score to act more like hit points. Each check takes its toll regardless of outcome and proper rest, holy words/blessings, and medical care replenishes it). Create a framework similar to Dark Sun's "Alignment in Desperate Situations" and suddenly we have potentially fun group conflict during times of extreme duress. Want more fun, have the players roll for a random alignment and keep the results secret. When they break, reveal it and compel the player to roleplay within this temporary mindset, in addition to any madness effects they may have picked up. Everybody thinks they know how they'll react when forced into true survival mode, but when your mind and body are absolutely frayed it can be a completely different persona that emerges...

Or something like that.

Change things so that the new edition has its stamp on it but at the same time keep things familiar enough that a two-way transition is as smooth as possible.

To help cherry pick ideas for a RL Alignment in Desperate Situations chart whathaveyou, check this place out and take a look at the commandments and sins for each alignment, as well as the honorable and dishonorable actions: http://easydamus.com/alignment.html

RE: Pirate Elf Strahd. Yeah, I've seen that version before but forgot about it. It's...different. Not what I picture but ok. Man. Thanks Cromstar for the visual.

RE: Curse of Strahd. CoS is probably the best Wizards can do with horror without bypassing current safety guards. I'll say that much, yes. So far I've only flipped through Rime, so I can't speak for that. And I don't watch other people play Dungeons and Dragons (I tried with Wil Wheaton and Co and their Titansgrave rpg but couldn't make it through the first episode) so I have no clue what Perkins is capable of once he's clocked out (or even if the brass truly lets him). If he's got followers/viewers/subscribers whatever then I can only assume that others will agree with Jester's assessment.

[ewancummins]

And I don't watch other people play Dungeons and Dragons (I tried with Wil Wheaton and Co and their Titansgrave rpg but couldn't make it through the first episode) so I have no clue what Perkins is capable of once he's clocked out (or even if the brass truly lets him). If he's got followers/viewers/subscribers whatever then I can only assume that others will agree with Jester's assessment.

Watching other people play D&D online doesn't much interest me. Playing online, yes. Reading a campaign journal or notes, sure.

(I'm not bashing Critical Role. I understand the show has donated to children's charities. That's admirable. I just don't see the appeal in 'geek culture.' I'm a hobbyist, not a 'geek.')

[Jester of the FoS]

PG-13 is a great place to be if the goal is to appeal to young adults and their parents. I suspect only a very small number of kids are actually playing the game, and it's much more college age and up, but I could be wrong. It's just a guess.

WotC actually released a pretty cool infographic last year, based on market research they conducted and hired firms to do.

12% of players are 8-12
13% are 13-17
15% are 18-24
(Which means 40% of current players are <24/ and GenZ/ Zoomers)
15% are 25-29
19% are 20-34
15% are 35-39
and only 11% are 40+

And 39% of players are female.

D&D has made HUGE inroads with younger players in the last half-decade, who ARE happy to watch people play D&D and enter the hobby that way. Critical Role and the like have become a massive recruitment tool.

[Jester of the FoS]

RE: Curse of Strahd. CoS is probably the best Wizards can do with horror without bypassing current safety guards.

Keep in mind that TSR had very, VERY strict rules on what could and could not be done in their adventure material and products. Which spring out of the Satanic Panic of the 1980s.
Hence the renaming of demons and devils. Good always had to win. And myriad other limitations. This was lamented by many writers at the time, would couldn't make villainous organizations more than paper tigers.
Almost every single Ravenloft product was published during this restrictive era.

It wasn't until WotC purchased TSR in 1997 that the restrictions were lifted, allowing demons and devils to return, bring back Orcus, and the like.

WotC's current policy allows much more creative freedom in the horrible things the adventures can describe and the events of the plots than anything in 2e.
They're not going full Shadow of the Demon Lord, but they're doing alright. And really, that type of graphic and explicit tone isn't suitable for Ravenloft. Even the hard-R of Vampire the Masquerade feels gratuitous at times and ill suited for the subtle gothic tones of the Land of the Mists.

I have no clue what Perkins is capable of once he's clocked out (or even if the brass truly lets him). If he's got followers/viewers/subscribers whatever then I can only assume that others will agree with Jester's assessment.

Most of his Dice, Camera, Action games have 60k viewer numbers on YouTube. Not Critical Role numbers, but decent.

But, for example, he has the evil animated doll in the adventure straight up murder several children in front of the players. Which would be a huge "no no" by TSR standards.
He's the kind of DM who happily has Ireena killed by the PCs with a poorly planned hold person, which causes her to fall off Strahd's nightmare steed to her death. He pulls no punches and lets actions have horrible consequences.

[Jester of the FoS]

Just for reference:
https://youtu.be/xANGPVDzcW0?t=6391

[Mischief]

How about a book of mysteries? Scenarios, new investigative items and spells, and dark magic for nefarious murder plots and for hunting monsters. And I mean hunting monsters less in the sense of combat, but more tracking down a creature that is doing its best to avoid direct combat by the clues and signs.

An Alanik's Casebook in other words.

I've drafted some ideas for Detective vs. Criminal type scenarios, and a bunch of the spells, Auscult, Bellchime, Deadtack, Disguise Voice, Eclipse Script, Ghost Lantern, Hullabagloom, and Vitriolic Double I released in my previous QTR. Deadtack is getting re-released in Zytia along with a fun spell/item called Soulpin.