5e announced!

[Jester of the FoS]

Now, let's move to vampires. The default vampire is CR 13.
That means that for PCs to have a fighting chance against a lone vampire they should be at least 10th lvl. Now, That's too much. Add 3 vampire spawns in the same encounter and it's pushed to min lvl 13, for a fighting chance and lvl 15 to be just a "tough" encounter.
OK, liches can and IMO should work as high lvl (perhaps campaign) uber-villains, I didn't like them starting at just 11th lvl back in 3rd. But the generic default vamps should IMO be mid-lvl threats.
Oh, and unlike "CR 21" which is subjective because of high lvl spells, CR 13 is easier to assess correctly.

I believe the "default" lich presented should be an 18th lvl spellcaster, yes, but with CR of like 15. Which means that the "default" vampire should drop from CR 13 to CR 8 or something. And the vampire spawn should drop to CR 3-4.
I'll make a try to "tone them down" once I have the monster manual but to know for sure how to change what, I'll need to wait for the DMG.

11th level. A vamp is a "deadly encounter" at 11th level, being just over the deadly threshold of level 10.

But the vampire entry has this image:


That, my friends, is Castle Ravenloft.

[Zilfer]

Now, let's move to vampires. The default vampire is CR 13.
That means that for PCs to have a fighting chance against a lone vampire they should be at least 10th lvl. Now, That's too much. Add 3 vampire spawns in the same encounter and it's pushed to min lvl 13, for a fighting chance and lvl 15 to be just a "tough" encounter.
OK, liches can and IMO should work as high lvl (perhaps campaign) uber-villains, I didn't like them starting at just 11th lvl back in 3rd. But the generic default vamps should IMO be mid-lvl threats.
Oh, and unlike "CR 21" which is subjective because of high lvl spells, CR 13 is easier to assess correctly.

I believe the "default" lich presented should be an 18th lvl spellcaster, yes, but with CR of like 15. Which means that the "default" vampire should drop from CR 13 to CR 8 or something. And the vampire spawn should drop to CR 3-4.
I'll make a try to "tone them down" once I have the monster manual but to know for sure how to change what, I'll need to wait for the DMG.

11th level. A vamp is a "deadly encounter" at 11th level, being just over the deadly threshold of level 10.

But the vampire entry has this image:


That, my friends, is Castle Ravenloft.

But..... is that vamp strahd!??!?!?

[TheSalemlord]

:3 I ...Need...that...manual!

[Jester of the FoS]

But the vampire entry has this image:


That, my friends, is Castle Ravenloft.

But..... is that vamp strahd!??!?!?

Yes and no...


Looks like the 3e revamp of Strahd.
But it's easy to dismiss as non-Strahd. And the statblock has a spellcasting variant (challenge 15).

[Bluebomber4evr]

The PHB also name-drops Castle Ravenloft in the example of play on page 5.

[alhoon]

Ever heard of a skeleton key?

Sure. Did the mage ever made one? Or used one? OK, a mage CAN create thief tools, because that's where skeleton keys are, but using them is different. Still with a few tries he can open a lock with DC 20. Which means... prison cells should have those bars that keep them closed and the lock for the bar is out of reach of those inside.
Because actually a mage can be proficient in thief tools or have a thief or bard buddy with him. So DC 25 doesn't cut it

[alhoon]

That means that for PCs to have a fighting chance against a lone vampire they should be at least 10th lvl.

11th level. A vamp is a "deadly encounter" at 11th level, being just over the deadly threshold of level 10.

Well, not really considering how they kinda underestimated a party's power. Many "a bit over deadly" encounters that I've seen are actually "very tough, with a good chance of TPK but still the PCs may win" encounters, since PCs have usually better stats than the default array.

For example: 3 ogres are "a bit over deadly" for a party of 5 adventurers of 4th lvl.
Yet, ogres are stupid (easily tricked, no good strategies) and have AC 11. While a life cleric at 4th lvl can heal 20 hp as a bonus action using channel divinity and then drop a healing spell on top of that. With hr+6, an ogre deals 20 damage in 4 rounds on a character with AC 19.

Another example is 3 hill giants vs a party of 4 9th lvl characters. A tough fight, may lead to TPC but the PCs certainly have a good chance.

EDIT
I found the vampire here
I was not impressed. It's quite easy to take down by an 8th lvl party... provided they know what they deal with and cast protection from evil on everyone or have scrolls\potions.
Of course taking that vamp down is just the first step since he\she will be back in an hour and a few minutes to go have a snack on a prisoner to regain hp.

The main problem in the encounter with a vampire is certainly not his AC or hp (they are less than the CR 5 earth elemental but it can heal with bites). It's that dreadful charm DC 17. Take that out and the vampire is easier to deal with than a CR 7 stone giant. Don't neutralize that and a 20th lvl party may fall.
(of course a 20th lvl party that can't deal with charm effects isn't going to fare good against anything of their CR though)

That, my friends, is Castle Ravenloft.

But..... is that vamp strahd!??!?!?

Well, since the picture of Castle Ravenloft... I mean the generic vamp den, has that nice blue box that says "Strahd von Zarovich" I would assume that guy is Strahd.

Who they have for the lich? I hope not Vecna. Although let's face it, Vecna is the lich that started it all. I would recommend a reality shift of Vecna being the first ever lich that discovered the method and the phylactery and all, and all liches from there on were using similar methodology

Just noticed:
Simulacrum is not a ritual type spell, although it has a casting time of 12 hours. As if you could go adventuring and stop to make a simulacrum for half a day and then continue adventuring. I believe Simulacrum should be a ritual spell. A wizard should be able to make one out of the book, without preparing the spell first.

[Zilfer]

Ever heard of a skeleton key?

Sure. Did the mage ever made one? Or used one? OK, a mage CAN create thief tools, because that's where skeleton keys are, but using them is different. Still with a few tries he can open a lock with DC 20. Which means... prison cells should have those bars that keep them closed and the lock for the bar is out of reach of those inside.
Because actually a mage can be proficient in thief tools or have a thief or bard buddy with him. So DC 25 doesn't cut it

Sorry i wasn't actually referring to the item i was more referring to an actual skeleton key in real life. Should have made it more clear that it was a joke, my apologizes!

[Jester of the FoS]

I was not impressed. It's quite easy to take down by an 8th lvl party... provided they know what they deal with and cast protection from evil on everyone or have scrolls\potions.

Protection from evil requires concentration, so only one party member can likely have it up at a tine.

The main problem in the encounter with a vampire is certainly not his AC or hp (they are less than the CR 5 earth elemental but it can heal with bites). It's that dreadful charm DC 17. Take that out and the vampire is easier to deal with than a CR 7 stone giant. Don't neutralize that and a 20th lvl party may fall.

It also regenerates 20hp a round and resists non-magical weapons. Plus it can attack four times a round and summon bats/wolves.
And if it drops a creature with its bite, the creature dies.

Who they have for the lich? I hope not Vecna. Although let's face it, Vecna is the lich that started it all. I would recommend a reality shift of Vecna being the first ever lich that discovered the method and the phylactery and all, and all liches from there on were using similar methodology

Just some generic lich. Both eyes IIRC.

[alhoon]

The main problem in the encounter with a vampire is certainly not his AC or hp (they are less than the CR 5 earth elemental but it can heal with bites). It's that dreadful charm DC 17. Take that out and the vampire is easier to deal with than a CR 7 stone giant. Don't neutralize that and a 20th lvl party may fall.

It also regenerates 20hp a round and resists non-magical weapons. Plus it can attack four times a round and summon bats/wolves.

oohh, I missed the regeneration. I should have read it more carefully.
4 attacks/round with +9 hr and dealing 1d8+4 hp are nothing special. It's like 2 attacks with +9 that deal 2d10+6 damage each. Nor are the 3d6 wolves. But the 20 hp/round are a problem when the vampire is so mobile. Even with holy water/radiant damage to block it, the vampire would likely heal 60-80 damage in the battle simply by virtue of flying away or retreating to the roof (or behind the wolves).

Good catch that Protection from evil is concentration though. I've missed that. So, unless there's protection from evil 10' spell (or potions/items) charm (in my opinion) is still the main problem that could challenge even a 20th lvl party. DC 17 is very high.

[alhoon]

Just some generic lich. Both eyes IIRC.

Do you already have the MManual? Was there an early release to select stores for these like with the PHB?
Anyway, did they update the art for the lich, or it's still the same lich pic used in 3rd, 3.5 and 4e?

[Jester of the FoS]

Just some generic lich. Both eyes IIRC.

Do you already have the MManual? Was there an early release to select stores for these like with the PHB?
Anyway, did they update the art for the lich, or it's still the same lich pic used in 3rd, 3.5 and 4e?

Yes. WPN regularly get the books early. Ther's one nearby (I play PFS there) and like to support it, so bought the books. Lich pic forthcoming.

[Jester of the FoS]

The lich looks very Red Wizard-esque.

[alhoon]

So... an apprentice of Szass Tam in the new undead empire of Thay. It's hard to miss it.
With the neverwinter online game of WotC having such enemies, it's not surprising.

I can sincerely say that I don't like that lich's art. Not that it's not a good picture, but ... it's not how I would like a lich to look. I would like a more Azalinish (or Vecna-looking) lich.
The vampy art is more to my liking. I would like a lich's pic to have more gray in the font and the lich to be dressed in more somber colors.
Like those two:
http://nerdworthygames.com/wp-content/u ... 977360.jpg


http://th09.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2 ... 5f7sxe.jpg


Actually, the gray-and-white sketch behind the lich is more to my liking than the actual undead red wizard

[alhoon]

Does anyone know when the "basic" monster manual would be out? The 60-pages handbook with monsters doesn't have any art or descriptions, it can't be that.
It also misses a lot of the iconic monsters and all devils, demons and angels.

The basic PHB is very inclusive, it leaves a sour taste in a couple of places (no feats, "meh" choice for wizard) but generally I was very pleased with it. So I expect the basic monster manual to have like 10-15 NPCs, the animals and 70-80 monsters on top of that, including solo monsters with action points and legendary resistance, with descriptions but not lair actions or regional effects. This would bump the Monster manual basic to 130-140 pages. That is in tune in size and concept to the PHB
The PDF as it is, is a rough, hardly usable unless you know the monster already, list of monsters.

Come on, they can't just give us the spectator and NOT give us the beholder! Who does that?!