Heroes of the Mist: 4e Ravenloft Project

[The Pickled Punk]

I think that a "Heroes of the Mist" project designed to provide DMs with a quick way to run 4E PCs native to the Domains of Dread is a worthwhile one. Rather than try to rewrite the Gazetteers, the project should focus on areas that enhance the players' connection to the campaign, while reducing the amount of work a DM needs to invest in working on his campaign. You don't need to re-invent the wheel, you just need to check the tire pressure, make sure there are no holes in the tires, and reinflate them if necessary.

Here's my suggestion on a format:

1) Decide which 4E races are native to Ravenloft, which 4E races need be reskinned to make them natives and which ones are always Outlanders. (My vote for the third category: Dragonborn. They don't fit the setting, except as an exotic visitor.)

2) Decide which 4E classes are thematically appropriate for the campaign as is, which ones can be easily reskinned to fit the theme of the campaign, and which ones are never thematically appropriate to the campaign, and must be played as Outlanders.

3) Decide which races and classes are found in which Domains. Do not mention a class or race that does not appear in a Domain. If a specific subclass is not found in a Domain, make mention of it. For example, if a Domain has Mages and Arcanists, but not Witches, when you list the class you should say Wizard (Arcanist, Mage).

4) Make a list of skills common to the Domain. Then create Backgrounds that make those skills Associated Skills. For example, lets say that you want to note that Borcan Heroes often have Bluff, Endurance, Insight and Religion. Rather than list these skills, you could instead have the following Backgrounds:

Downtrodden Borcan:
Your family is one of the more productive artisans, farmers or merchants in Borca, but almost every copper foxglove they earned was taken by the greedy tax collectors controlled by Ivan Dilisnya. Fed up with this state of affairs, you have left for greener pastures.
Home Domain: Borca
Associated Skills: Endurance, Religion

Idle Borcan:
You are the spoiled child of one of the more powerful banking families in Borca. However your life of leisure was disrupted when your families’ holdings were seized by Ivan Dilisnya’s tax collectors. Since then you have sworn revenge, but you know better than to openly challenge Ivan or his cousin, Ivana Boritsi. Instead you are biding your time for a moment to strike.
Home Domain: Borca
Associated Language: Mordentish
Associated Skills: Bluff, Insight

(These two backgrounds are from my campaign's House Rules document.)

5) Think about Themes that might be thematically appropriate for the Domains. Make sure the Themes are not mechanically unbalanced, neither too powerful or too weak.

[Mortavius]

I like your guidelines, Pickled Punk. If I were looking or making such a document, that's a format that I would find useful.

I especially like the idea of not mentioning uncommon classes. I'm of the opinion that you can have any class or race from any domain, but if it's not a common one, then the Player and DM have to come up with a reason why. For example, although there are no churches or clerics in Lamordia, if a player really wanted to play a divine character from Lamordia, and could think of a way it could work, I would allow it. I would make it clear that there PC is an abnormality, and may be treated as such, but I wouldn't say they couldn't play the class.

Secondly, I would suggest a judicious use regarding the races. For example, I don't think Dragonborn have a place as a native race in Ravenloft. I don't think re-skinning it should be done, as it compromises and weakens the race overall. Xenophobia is an important component of Ravenloft; if we just start re-skinning races that don't look right, we remove or water down that aspect of the setting. (Having said that, if a PC wanted to play an outlander Dragonborn, and knew what they were getting in to, I'd say all the more power to him/her.)

On the other hand, there are a few times when I would say re-skinning could work, if done properly. Tieflings come to mind. They fit the setting well (although I would say they are a rare race), and you could re-skin them to reduce their demonic physical aspects somewhat. Not completely mind you; corruption of the flesh is a great theme with the demons, but toning down their giant horns and tales while making sure they still have some marking would work well.

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that I don't think all the 4E races have a place in Ravenloft, and that's okay.

[The Pickled Punk]

I like your guidelines, Pickled Punk. If I were looking or making such a document, that's a format that I would find useful.

Thanks. As I said I am running a 4E Ravenloft campaign and have been thinking about such things. Right now my players are playing the following: A Vistani Skald (Human with Vistani Heritage feat) who focuses on melee combat, with one ranged at-will spell; a Vistani Tempest Fighter (also Human with Vistani Heritage feat); Half-Elf Hunter from Barovia (Elven parent is unknown to PC, came from Sithicus); Giamarga Arcanist Wizard from Sithicus (Half-Elf with Vistani Heritage feat); Human Berserker from Tepest; and Kobold Artful Dodger Rogue from Falkovnia. Every character is native, and I helped the players less familiar with the setting come up with backstories for their PCs.

For example the Human Berserker wandered into the woods and saw the Muryan dancing; she followed them and spent months dancing, fighting and being infused with Primal power. When she got back to town her hair was longer, her clothes were torn and filthy and she reeked from not bathing for months, despite less than a day or two passing. So she fled into the Mists before the Inquisition showed up. The Berserker was introduced in Heroes of the Feywild as a mix of Martial and Primal; having the Muryan teach her the class and abandon her is in keeping with the spirit of the class.

I especially like the idea of not mentioning uncommon classes. I'm of the opinion that you can have any class or race from any domain, but if it's not a common one, then the Player and DM have to come up with a reason why. For example, although there are no churches or clerics in Lamordia, if a player really wanted to play a divine character from Lamordia, and could think of a way it could work, I would allow it. I would make it clear that there PC is an abnormality, and may be treated as such, but I wouldn't say they couldn't play the class.

This is especially true given some of the rules mechanic changes in 4E. In earlier editions healing was the sole province of Divine spellcasters. In 4E, all Leaders have some form of healing. Clerics would not fit into Lamordia, but Artificers would, especially if they are presented as "mad scientists" rather than mages using technology. Rangers would not be welcome in most Lamordian towns, but in the outskirts of the Domain they might be seen as a necessary evil to deal with the harsh weather.

In general I'd prefer to be able to have at least one class of each role come from each Domain, with more if they fit the nature of the Domain. The major issue will be how to fit the Primal classes in, especially the Shaman and PHB2 Druid. Valachan would be a good Core Domain for Shamans to come from. I'm also thinking about the "witches" of Hala and whether it makes sense for them to be Clerics. I think it would be better for Hala's priesthood to consist of Shamans and Witches (Wizard subclass from Heroes of the Feywild). That way players could choose these classes while reflavoring them to fit the established lore about Hala and the Weave.

Secondly, I would suggest a judicious use regarding the races. For example, I don't think Dragonborn have a place as a native race in Ravenloft. I don't think re-skinning it should be done, as it compromises and weakens the race overall. Xenophobia is an important component of Ravenloft; if we just start re-skinning races that don't look right, we remove or water down that aspect of the setting. (Having said that, if a PC wanted to play an outlander Dragonborn, and knew what they were getting in to, I'd say all the more power to him/her.)

Agreed. At one point while developing my current campaign I thought about introducing a Domain in the Sea of Sorrows called Dragon Island, inhabited by Dragonborn, but in the end I discarded the idea. While it might be interesting to use that idea in an adventure influenced by pulp novels, I could not justify using it to introduce Dragonborn as a native race. I only allow them as Outlanders.

On the other hand, there are a few times when I would say re-skinning could work, if done properly. Tieflings come to mind. They fit the setting well (although I would say they are a rare race), and you could re-skin them to reduce their demonic physical aspects somewhat. Not completely mind you; corruption of the flesh is a great theme with the demons, but toning down their giant horns and tales while making sure they still have some marking would work well.

Tieflings work great and there are several ways to introduce them as natives. One way would be that anyone who makes a pact (especially a Warlock pact) with a fiend is cursed to have his or her offspring forever be marked as Tieflings. Also they could be a result of a pregnant woman exposed to a fiend's reality wrinkle, the same as Calibans being corrupted by the malign presence of Hags. They can be the result of curses laid by Vistani or others, or the descendants of Tieflings from the Empire of Bael Turath who had the bad luck to move to Darkon. There are many possibilities.

I posted in another thread, about making some of the other 4E races, like Githzerai, Minotaurs or Goliaths into breeds of Caliban. Shifters could be genetic throwbacks resulting from true lycanthropes mating with humans; children of infected lycanthropes; or they could be the result of curses lain on the children of a loup de noir. There is a Doppleganger race in the Eberron Player's Guide, which could come from Paridon. The Warforged race (also from Eberron Player's Guide) could be found in Lamordia, perhaps clockwork men rather than magical; they could also come from Vechor, cast off experiments that Easan has forgotten. Kalashtar (from Eberron Player's Guide) make great Thaani. There are said to be Drow living in Darkon, under the Mountains of Misery.

Here's my list of 4E Races that should not be natives:

• Devas: angels reincarnated in bodies of flesh; when they die they are reborn somewhere else. There are a finite number of Devas, always reborn in new, adult bodies with hazy memories of their past lives. They have a connections to Rakhshasas, so there are probably a few running around Sri Raji, but they can't be considered "natives" in the traditional sense.
• Wilden: Strange plant-like Fey from the Feywild that appear in PHB3. Really weird. Do not fit the setting.
• Shardminds: Sentient crystalline creatures created from shards of a gate in the Astral Sea that locked away the Far-Realm. Really bizarre. Do not fit the setting.
• Githzerai: Githzerai are the descendants of slaves of the Illithids who rebelled under the leadership of a woman named Gith. The Githzerai split from Gith's more fanatical followers, the Githyanki. Githzerai could be reskinned to fit the campaign, but it would take some work. They need to be Outlanders otherwise.
• Hamadryads, Pixies and Satyrs: Three races introduced in Heroes of the Feywild. They are not really good choices for the campaign, since they don't resemble Shadow Fey, nor do they belong in other parts of the campaign. They could be Outlanders who inspire terror in the locals (especially Tepest).
• Genasi: Beings touched by the Elemental Chaos from Forgotten Realms Player's Guide. Do not really fit, but could be reskinned with difficulty into a breed of Caliban, I suppose.

[Hell_Born]

I admit I prefer to remember the Fantasy element of Ravenloft rather than just straight "Gothic Horror", but I actually don't have problems with some of the races that generally get relegated to "Outlanders only".

Dragonborn - As I noted, one of the core domains is Sithicus, which is basically an imperfect copy of Krynn and unique amongst the Core in that its primary inhabitants ARE non-humans (Elves). Add to this the fact Soth was part of the dragonarmies during the Age of Despair, and the rules of reworking Dragonborn into Draconians, and I have no personal qualms about having Sithican dragonborn. At most, I'd enforce a "must use the Kapak/Bozaak draconian rules from Dragon", but even that's flexible, in my eyes - Sithicus is Soth's former stomping ground, and part of his curse was that the domain was an imperfect, distorted echo of his home world. Otherwise, they could be a particular strain of reptilian caliban, or some sort of magic-spawned mutation.

Warforged: As-is, I could easily see Warforged coming out of Darkon or Hazlan (both highly magical locations), or being a "failed" line of experiments from Todstein (their free will is a result of their "failure", in Meredoth's eyes). With reskinning, they can easily become sentient clanks (clockwork robots) or non-malevolent flesh golems from Lamordia (remember the church of "failed spawn" flesh golems created by Adam?), or "soul transposed into mechanical body/hollow suits of armor" from Vechor.

Deva: Long-fallen angels, either damned to Ravenloft or willingly entered ala Isolde only to lose their path. Or else they are the kin by homage of The Nameless One; mortals who made a strange pact and found themselves stripped of their mortality, becoming something more - and less - than human.

Hamadryads: Could be used to create calibans of the "eerily beautiful and yet loathsome" variety, ala the Banshee breed from Quoth the Raven 8, or else could be some kind of loa-breed/possessed from out of Souragne, or other especially "wild" forested domains. After all, the Maiden of the Swamp is basically an advanced dryad who can gift a person with divine magic, while the Green Maiden of Falkovnia is a pseudonatural nymph, so it's not entirely without precedent that there are nymphkin in Ravenloft.

Satyr: Easily refleshable into a "Bestial" type caliban, ala the aforementioned article. Especially if you drop that stupid "must always be male" racial quality.

Genasai: Witchspawn calibans.

[Mortavius]

By all means Hell_Born, whatever works best for your game is what you should use.

It's completely plausible to make any race "work" in Ravenloft. Warforged can easily be a race of created beings that have come from Lamordia or Vechor. Genasi can be changed and corrupted by the elements of Ravenloft (in fact, I remember an article about that...). And you can make Dragonborn work in Sithicus as you've described.

The thing is, is that you're changing the setting by doing so. One of the common things about Ravenloft is how the people judge everyone by appearances. Calibans are shunned because of their deformities. Elves in Tepest are persecuted and accused of being in league with the Fey simple because they have pointed ears and a connection to the forests. Even Dwarves are thought of as monsters by some, creatures that eat rocks and gems.

It's fine if it works for you to have those other races; I applaud you for finding something you like that works. But if you want to provide a document that combines 4E and Ravenloft, and put that document out as an outline for others to follow, then you should try and adhere to the setting over the generic 4E rules. After all, there are worlds where PC's can play Dragonborn, Genasi, etc. Does Ravenloft benefit from adding those races and downplaying the natural xenophobia of the setting? Personally, I don't think so.

I'm not against finding new ways to integrate new ideas. But the best ideas are ones that are unique and fresh, but don't contradict established rules and tones in the setting.

Perhaps a good compromise would be changing the outline for your project. Rather than being just "4E & Ravenloft" it could be "4E High Fantasy Ravenloft." That way you could pursue your ideas without worrying about the established tone and rules of the setting, because you're approaching it with an intent to deviate from them in areas encouraging high fantasy?

[The Pickled Punk]

I have a few comments, so I'll go race by race.

I admit I prefer to remember the Fantasy element of Ravenloft rather than just straight "Gothic Horror", but I actually don't have problems with some of the races that generally get relegated to "Outlanders only".

Dragonborn - As I noted, one of the core domains is Sithicus, which is basically an imperfect copy of Krynn and unique amongst the Core in that its primary inhabitants ARE non-humans (Elves). Add to this the fact Soth was part of the dragonarmies during the Age of Despair, and the rules of reworking Dragonborn into Draconians, and I have no personal qualms about having Sithican dragonborn. At most, I'd enforce a "must use the Kapak/Bozaak draconian rules from Dragon", but even that's flexible, in my eyes - Sithicus is Soth's former stomping ground, and part of his curse was that the domain was an imperfect, distorted echo of his home world. Otherwise, they could be a particular strain of reptilian caliban, or some sort of magic-spawned mutation.

I have a serious issue with turning Dragonborn into Draconians. Other than both being a sort of "dragon-humanoid" they are very different, both in terms of flavor and (more importantly) game mechanics.

In terms of flavor, Dragonborn are honorable warriors, favoring strength of arms and magic equally. They descend from an ancient empire that had a strong martial tradition (Fighters and Warlords), great knights and templars (Clerics and Paladins), powerful Sorcerors and Warlocks, and even Bards (Valorous of course!). Draconians are the result of Dragon Highlord Ariakas' warped experiments with the eggs of good dragons. While there were heroic Draconians (the famous "bridge-builders"), they are few and far between. While Dragonborn are as likely to be Evil as they are Good, Draconians are overwhelmingly Evil. And they have a few drawbacks that Dragonborn don't, which leads to the mechanical differences.

Draconians are not natural creatures; they are basically Broken Ones made from Dragon embryos. When a Draconian dies the magical energy that was used in its creation is released; in their death throes Draconians turn to stone, melt into acid or even explode. Only one type has a breath weapon, with the others using brute strength or spells to compensate. Dragonborn all have a breath weapon, plus stronger healing surges. The majority of racial feats for Dragonborn are based on the Breath Weapon racial attack power (either making it more powerful or expending it to gain another effect). Turning the Dragonborn into Draconians is forcing a square peg into a round hole, IMO.

Warforged: As-is, I could easily see Warforged coming out of Darkon or Hazlan (both highly magical locations), or being a "failed" line of experiments from Todstein (their free will is a result of their "failure", in Meredoth's eyes). With reskinning, they can easily become sentient clanks (clockwork robots) or non-malevolent flesh golems from Lamordia (remember the church of "failed spawn" flesh golems created by Adam?), or "soul transposed into mechanical body/hollow suits of armor" from Vechor.

There are lots of fun and interesting ways to reskin Warforged for use in Ravenloft, without changing the game mechanics. I heartily approve of all of these ideas!

Deva: Long-fallen angels, either damned to Ravenloft or willingly entered ala Isolde only to lose their path. Or else they are the kin by homage of The Nameless One; mortals who made a strange pact and found themselves stripped of their mortality, becoming something more - and less - than human.

Devas aren't exactly "fallen", they are more "angels in mortal bodies in order to fulfill a task". Isolde would probably be a Deva in 4E. Here's an idea: Devas who incarnate in Ravenloft do so against the will of their patron Deity. They appear more like Humans, Eladrin or Elves (rather than looking the children of X-Men villain Apocalypse) and are opposed by Arijani, Darklord of Sri Raji, who seeks to corrupt them and transform them into Rakhshasas. It could work with a bit of work, but ultimately they came from outside of Ravenloft, similar to the way Isolde did.

Hamadryads: Could be used to create calibans of the "eerily beautiful and yet loathsome" variety, ala the Banshee breed from Quoth the Raven 8, or else could be some kind of loa-breed/possessed from out of Souragne, or other especially "wild" forested domains. After all, the Maiden of the Swamp is basically an advanced dryad who can gift a person with divine magic, while the Green Maiden of Falkovnia is a pseudonatural nymph, so it's not entirely without precedent that there are nymphkin in Ravenloft.

Satyr: Easily refleshable into a "Bestial" type caliban, ala the aforementioned article. Especially if you drop that stupid "must always be male" racial quality.

Genasai: Witchspawn calibans.

Here's my issues with turning these races into Calibans:

1) Hamadryad and Satyrs have the Fey origin, Genasi have the Elemental origin. Would you want to remove those racial traits?

2) As you noted, Hamadryads and Satyrs each have a unique racial trait: Hamadryads are always female, Satyrs are always male.

3) Other than their physical appearance, Satyrs don't have much in common with Calibans. They resemble the Muryan or Teg breeds of Shadow Fey more than Caliban.

4) One of the defining traits of Genasi are their intellect. Their racial ability score modifiers are +2 INT, and either +2 STR or +2 CON. Are the Witchspawn Caliban that noted for their book-smarts?

[The Pickled Punk]

I guess we're still debating which races belong in the setting and which don't. If we're going to try to put together a campaign guide for DMs to use there needs to be consensus on what fits, with perhaps an appendix giving hints for DMs who wish to monkey with Dragonborn or Genasi to make them native.

I believe that the following races fit the themes and background of the campaign setting with require major changes. They have either appeared in previous editions, or they would enrich the setting by being added to it:

• Humans (duh).
• Changelings. (Just call them Dopplegangers, and they're ready to use.)
• Drow. (There are supposedly groups of Drow living beneath Darkon's Mountains of Misery.)
• Dwarves.
• Eladrin. (Their Fey Step power allows them to teleport through the Mists, not the Feywild. It can not be used to cross Domain borders, even when they are open.)
• Elves.
• Half-Elves.
• Halflings.
• Gnomes.
• Goblins.
• Half-Vistani (or full-blooded Vistani) using the Vistani Heritage feat. (Should non-Humans or non-Half Elves be allowed to take the feat?)
• Kobolds.
• Revenants.
• Shadar-Kai. (They live in the Shadowfell; it makes sense that they might stumble into the Domains of Dread.)
• Swirfneblin.
• Tieflings.
• Warforged.

I feel that the following races do not fit into the campaign as presented in their original forms, but they can be reskinned to fir the setting with no changes to their game mechanics:

• Githzerai.
• Gnolls.
• Goliaths.
• Half-Orcs.
• Kalashtar.
• Kenku.
• Mul.
• Minotaurs.
• Shifters.

The following races do not fit into the tone or theme of the campaign, and have mechanical issues that make reskinning them difficult:

• Devas.
• Dragonborn.
• Genasi.
• Hamadryads.
• Pixies.
• Satyrs.
• Shardminds.
• Thri-Kreen.
• Wilden.

[Mortavius]

Devas aren't exactly "fallen", they are more "angels in mortal bodies in order to fulfill a task". Isolde would probably be a Deva in 4E.

With respect, I have to disagree. Isolde should remain an angel in 4E. The Twisting of Carnival is because of her reality wrinkle as an Outsider; if you turn her into a Deva she would lose that as she basically becomes a mortal. Tieflings don't have a wrinkle, nor should their counter-parts, Devas.

I'm not opposed to Devas in practice (although I don't think they should be native to Ravenloft), but I am opposed to "weakening" Isolde and making her less unique by making her a Deva. Just because she has a humanoid form doesn't mean she should lose her status.

I'd like to also repeat my above statement, that I think this thread is heading into more a "high fantasy Ravenloft" than a traditional Ravenloft. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think it should be acknowledged. In a traditional Ravenloft game, for example, I don't think a PC who plays a Goblin or a Kobold would do well, even though they are present in the setting.

Aside from my aforementioned xenophobia issues in the setting, if you start letting PC's play traditional monster races, the monsters become less scary. And if nothing else, Ravenloft is about fear. After all, if you're going to let PC's play Goblins & Kobolds, why not the Vampire class? It has received more support in 4E than the Goblin or Kobold races to be sure.

[The Pickled Punk]

Devas aren't exactly "fallen", they are more "angels in mortal bodies in order to fulfill a task". Isolde would probably be a Deva in 4E.

With respect, I have to disagree. Isolde should remain an angel in 4E. The Twisting of Carnival is because of her reality wrinkle as an Outsider; if you turn her into a Deva she would lose that as she basically becomes a mortal. Tieflings don't have a wrinkle, nor should their counter-parts, Devas.

4E Tieflings and 4E Devas are not really similar at all. Devas have the Immortal origin (meaning they come from the Astral Sea, the home of the 4E Pantheon). Devas are Angels (servants of the deities) who forsook their Astral forms (faceless winged humanoids whose bodies trail away into a Casper-like tail) for a Deva form. Devas do not reproduce or have families; they reincarnate in adult bodies in a new location shortly after their old bodies are killed. They have sufficient memories of their past incarnations to be able to speak, read and write the languages they knew, to pray to the god they served, and to be able to learn the skills of the class they will choose.

Tieflings, like Humans, Dwarves, Half-Elves and Dragonborn, have the Natural origin. They are born, live and die in the "Natural World" (the Plane Formerly Known as Prime Materiel). They are not inherently demonic or diabolical, beyond their fiendish appearance and their Infernal Wrath.

I'm not opposed to Devas in practice (although I don't think they should be native to Ravenloft), but I am opposed to "weakening" Isolde and making her less unique by making her a Deva. Just because she has a humanoid form doesn't mean she should lose her status.

One of the good things about 4E is that not all creatures of the same race are created equal. Isolde could be considered a far more powerful (and unique) Deva, whose power far exceeds that of a PC Deva. Isolde might not have been one of the original Devas; in fact she could be the first new Angel to have become a Deva since the Dawn War ended. This, plus her strong desire to destroy the Gentleman Caller and her convictions about honesty resulted in her acquiring her reality wrinkle and causing the Twisting.

I'd like to also repeat my above statement, that I think this thread is heading into more a "high fantasy Ravenloft" than a traditional Ravenloft. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think it should be acknowledged. In a traditional Ravenloft game, for example, I don't think a PC who plays a Goblin or a Kobold would do well, even though they are present in the setting.

Aside from my aforementioned xenophobia issues in the setting, if you start letting PC's play traditional monster races, the monsters become less scary. And if nothing else, Ravenloft is about fear. After all, if you're going to let PC's play Goblins & Kobolds, why not the Vampire class? It has received more support in 4E than the Goblin or Kobold races to be sure.

I think that there is a big difference between a Goblin or Kobold and a Vampire. And there is a canonical example of Kobolds and Goblins living in the Core whose behavior borders on the heroic: The Basilisk and the Spawn of the Lizard, mentioned in Gaz II, are resistance fighters battling Drakov's Talons. Even if their alignment is Evil, compared to the Talons they are the lesser evil, and it would not be far-fetched to have one of their number become an adventurer seeking to fight the Falkovnians.

[Mortavius]

4E Tieflings and 4E Devas are not really similar at all. Devas have the Immortal origin (meaning they come from the Astral Sea, the home of the 4E Pantheon). Devas are Angels (servants of the deities) who forsook their Astral forms (faceless winged humanoids whose bodies trail away into a Casper-like tail) for a Deva form. Devas do not reproduce or have families; they reincarnate in adult bodies in a new location shortly after their old bodies are killed. They have sufficient memories of their past incarnations to be able to speak, read and write the languages they knew, to pray to the god they served, and to be able to learn the skills of the class they will choose.

Tieflings, like Humans, Dwarves, Half-Elves and Dragonborn, have the Natural origin. They are born, live and die in the "Natural World" (the Plane Formerly Known as Prime Materiel). They are not inherently demonic or diabolical, beyond their fiendish appearance and their Infernal Wrath.

Yes, thanks, I'm very much familiar with the story differences between the two races (one of the reasons I like the new Devas). But if you strip all that away, they are angelic based PC's and fiendish based PC's. And since this discussion centers on changing the races so much to fit Ravenloft anyways (changing the Warforged, Dragonborn, etc), my analogy does fit.

Isolde wasn't an Aasimar in previous editions...

One of the good things about 4E is that not all creatures of the same race are created equal. Isolde could be considered a far more powerful (and unique) Deva, whose power far exceeds that of a PC Deva. Isolde might not have been one of the original Devas; in fact she could be the first new Angel to have become a Deva since the Dawn War ended. This, plus her strong desire to destroy the Gentleman Caller and her convictions about honesty resulted in her acquiring her reality wrinkle and causing the Twisting.

Well, if that works for you, all the more power to you, I suppose. Personally, I still see no reason why she should not remain an angel. Not trying to be argumentative; I honestly just see no reason to change her from what she was to what you're proposing, especially considering angels still exist in 4E. In fact, it's almost better, because angels in 4E are less "human" and more "task-focused." With Isolde being consumed with chasing her quarry, a 4E angel might be an even better fit than before.

I think that there is a big difference between a Goblin or Kobold and a Vampire. And there is a canonical example of Kobolds and Goblins living in the Core whose behavior borders on the heroic: The Basilisk and the Spawn of the Lizard, mentioned in Gaz II, are resistance fighters battling Drakov's Talons. Even if their alignment is Evil, compared to the Talons they are the lesser evil, and it would not be far-fetched to have one of their number become an adventurer seeking to fight the Falkovnians.

Jander Sunstar?
I get the feeling you're talking about degrees of monster, but I'm saying, if you're going to let one monster play, why not another? Isn't it splitting hairs to say that Kobolds are okay, but Vampires are not?

[Jester of the FoS]

Devas aren't exactly "fallen", they are more "angels in mortal bodies in order to fulfill a task". Isolde would probably be a Deva in 4E.

With respect, I have to disagree. Isolde should remain an angel in 4E. The Twisting of Carnival is because of her reality wrinkle as an Outsider; if you turn her into a Deva she would lose that as she basically becomes a mortal. Tieflings don't have a wrinkle, nor should their counter-parts, Devas.

I'm not opposed to Devas in practice (although I don't think they should be native to Ravenloft), but I am opposed to "weakening" Isolde and making her less unique by making her a Deva. Just because she has a humanoid form doesn't mean she should lose her status.

I'd like to also repeat my above statement, that I think this thread is heading into more a "high fantasy Ravenloft" than a traditional Ravenloft. There's nothing wrong with that, but I think it should be acknowledged. In a traditional Ravenloft game, for example, I don't think a PC who plays a Goblin or a Kobold would do well, even though they are present in the setting.

Aside from my aforementioned xenophobia issues in the setting, if you start letting PC's play traditional monster races, the monsters become less scary. And if nothing else, Ravenloft is about fear. After all, if you're going to let PC's play Goblins & Kobolds, why not the Vampire class? It has received more support in 4E than the Goblin or Kobold races to be sure.

Devas are "immortal" in 4e, the equivalent to "outsider", and deva are not the same as aasimar. There is not angel-blooded creature in 4e.
Angels are also legless, mouthless beings with wings in 4e. Very differently looking than Isolde.

You could make a case that she took mortal form becoming a unique type of deva when she entered the Mists. It's not a great fit for canon, but acceptable.

[The Pickled Punk]

4E Tieflings and 4E Devas are not really similar at all.
(SNIP)

Yes, thanks, I'm very much familiar with the story differences between the two races (one of the reasons I like the new Devas). But if you strip all that away, they are angelic based PC's and fiendish based PC's. And since this discussion centers on changing the races so much to fit Ravenloft anyways (changing the Warforged, Dragonborn, etc), my analogy does fit.

Isolde wasn't an Aasimar in previous editions...

No, she was a Ghaele Eladrin, an Angelic being with fey-like traits. She forsook her Angelic role in order to hunt the Gentleman Caller down, in the process assuming a human form.

In 4E Ghaele Eladrins are Elite members of the Eladrin court in the Feywild, not Angels. There is a race that consists of nothing but Angels that forsook their Angelic forms to become humanoids: Devas. The original Devas descended from the Astral Sea to do battle with evil: Devils, Demons, Primordials, Dragons, Giants. Because of the pact between the Gods and the Primal Forces that resulted at the end of the Dawn War, the Gods agreed to limit their direct involvement in the Natural World. The Angels who chose to become Devas wished to continue fighting against Evil, but in a more limited way that would not imperil the World. Therefor they need to live in the World, but are not of it. They still have the Immortal Origin, they have no children, and their numbers are only permanently depleted when a Deva becomes a Rakhshasah in his or her next life.

Devas are not really similar to the Aasimar of 2E and 3.X. Aasimar are the children of a Celestial (Archons, Devas, Eladrin, Rilmani, Guardinals, Solars) and a mortal (usually Humans or Elves). Tieflings are also not the same as their 2E and 3.X counterparts; they are the descendants of corrupt Humans who made pacts with Asmodeus and other Devils, not the children of a union between a Fiend (Devil, Demon or Daemon) and a mortal. The diabolic influence on Tieflings is not equivalent to the Immortal origins of Deva.

[The Pickled Punk]

It's not a great fit for canon, but acceptable.

IMO its the closest that a 4E version of Isolde can come to fitting into the older canon. The game mechanics and default assumptions of 4E are not the ones used in earlier editions. The goal shouldn't be "This has to be identical to what came before", it should be "How can we make this fit into the spirit of what came before?"

[Mortavius]

Devas are "immortal" in 4e, the equivalent to "outsider", and deva are not the same as aasimar.

I understand that...actually very clearly. By extending the logic that Devas would be considered Outsiders, it should mean that they all have wrinkles, and that a PC Deva then has less to fear from some Darklords, and closed domain borders become meaningless. Such a character could also preform rituals to gain new powers and reduce their wrinkles as well. This contradicts previous material where a PC could not gain such abilities until MUCH later in their career (20th level Monks being the only example that jumps to mind). I'm sure you can see how this would be a problem? It makes much more sense to acknowledge that Devas have heritage in that they originally were creatures that came from the Astral Plane, but have since become mortal beings. They can be killed just like any other mortal creature; even if they do come back in a reincarnated form, they are not immortal, no matter what game term is used to describe their type.

There is not angel-blooded creature in 4e.

True. But if a PC wanted to play an character who had a tie to the celestial realms, a Deva would be the best fit, right? Although you're technically correct Jester, I feel like we're splitting hairs here.

Angels are also legless, mouthless beings with wings in 4e. Very differently looking than Isolde.

Isolde herself doesn't look like a Ghaele Eladrin, so I'm not sure the comparison that you're making is apt. I didn't think it needed saying that when I was stating that Isolde should stay an Angel, that she would also keep her current appearance. Ghaele Eladrins can alter their appearance, I see no reason why a 4E Angel could also not do so.

So far I've seen a lot of text explaining the difference between Devas, Eladrin, Aasimars, and Angels. I can't stress enough folks, I know all this. I certainly do not dispute any of it. Sure, she was a specific type of Eladrin before. In a setting where all the celestials are present, that means something. In Ravenloft, however, she represents all the different types of celestials, as she is the only one.

The game mechanics and default assumptions of 4E are not the ones used in earlier editions. The goal shouldn't be "This has to be identical to what came before", it should be "How can we make this fit into the spirit of what came before?"

Couldn't agree more. But that doesn't mean I'm going to make changes that aren't necessary either.

I'm not a fan of keeping everything exactly the same. If that was the case, I'd be arguing that she should be the Eladrin PC race in 4E, because she was an Eladrin in previous editions.

I have yet to see anything that says why Isolde should be changed from a celestial being that she was, to a mortal being. Beyond that distinction, it's what she represents. Before, Isolde represented all the celestial beings. If you make her a Deva, then she loses that, because any player can make another Deva PC. To me, she's just not special anymore if you just make her just a Deva.

[Jester of the FoS]

It's not a great fit for canon, but acceptable.

IMO its the closest that a 4E version of Isolde can come to fitting into the older canon. The game mechanics and default assumptions of 4E are not the ones used in earlier editions. The goal shouldn't be "This has to be identical to what came before", it should be "How can we make this fit into the spirit of what came before?"

Maybe. But there's the choice between changing the world for the mechanics or changing the mechanics to fit the world.

Having Isolde become a high level deva keeps the 4e lore, as would having her be an eladrin from the Feywild.
The other option is retaining Isolde as an angel and having her appearance change, giving her a shapeshifting power.

A good update of a campaign setting is a compromise. Changing what works best changed (especially when the original flavour was a reflection or compromise for old rules) but trying to keep the original story when possible.