Did I go over the top, or did the player?

[ewancummins]

Evil characters can work in Ravenloft, IMO and IME.

There were two evil PCs in Mists over the Musarde, my first PbP game here.

Norzak Darkender was Tarlyn's PC.
Norzak was brutal, crude, swaggering dwarf with strange powers over shadows and a talent for larceny. (dwarf shadowsworn)

Jonathon Maytr was JMaytr's PC.
Jonathon was an orphan boy who worked as a ratter in the drains and cellars of Pont a Museau. At least, that's what he looked like on the surface. In reality, he was a twisted deviant who blossomed into a serial killer.
(human rogue)

Over the course of the campaign, Norzak shifted into True Neutral from Neutral Evil. He remained a thug, but his soft spot for women and kids (he'd lost his wife and child years ago) gradually moved him towards a less selfish, more heroic life. He came to regard Jonathon as almost a ward. He died without ever learning the truth about Jon.


Jonathon started the game evil and got worse. But he hid his crimes well. The others didn't realize what he was until late in the game. He actually tried to work with them as long as he could, since he really did want to help them hunt down and kill 'night-things' I could go into the full development of his character, but some players of mine might yet encounter him in future play. Suffice it to say he's by far the best villainous/evil PC I have ever seen in twenty years of gaming. In the end, he became a Darklord.

These two PCs worked well. I don't think they could have worked if pretty much all the other PC's hadn't been good aligned. (There was a single LN character).

[Epically]

The necro was CN.

There's also a CG fighter/cleric and a CG gladiator in the group.

When we first started the game, only three people we playing, which was the rogue, gladiator and the cleric. Each had their own agendas and why they were brought to Ravenloft.

Long story short; rogue was caught trying to assassinate a king. That king happened to be the father of the cleric. Rogue was sentenced to death in the arena. Out steps the gladiator. Mists arrise, people get transported, bad things. Why did the mists transport these three? Well, I like to view the dark powers as a representation of the duality of man. Forcing a CG cleric to work with CN rogue in order to survive, and forcing a CN rogue to think of someone else saftey also in order to survive. That's how I like to view it. As for the gladiator, that was kind of a on the spot idea, but basically the character longed for freedom. Ironically (and cruelly) the powers have granted that, but he will never truely be free. Being trapped in Ravenloft and what not.

Once this was established, the cleric and the rogue have their own agendas. The rogue is trying to convert the cleric to do evil things, and the cleric is trying to force the rogue down a path of redemption.

Everything was going well until the introduction of new players basically.

After much thinking, I'm going to can the current campaign since there's been too much disruption from other players. To be fair to the ones who want to stay, I'm starting anew at level 6 with a few magic items for them. They will start in Greyhawk. I'm going to run them through the house of Strahd, then back to Greyhawk for 10 years, then back to Ravenloft to finish off the last two modules of the Grand Conjunction since I was enjoying the story.

[Manofevil]

Maybe you should write the whole fiasco out as a fanfiction and post it in the fan fic section. Only have the characters respond in the way you would have had them respond, though keep the one poisoning himself. That's a good passage for a story.

[Strahdsbuddy]

Ahhhh the new DM. On some level, we all still are. It is the sort of thing it takes decades to get good at and no one really appreciates it but yourself.

I agree with everything Gonzoron said, and I'd like to take it a step further. RPGs are not you vs the players, despite opposed rolls and you playing all the monsters and creating devious ways of killing them. At the heart of it, you're supposed to be on the same side. You have a story to tell, and the players want to hear it. Never confuse winning an argument with winning the game. Like a good marriage, make sure you pick your battles.

A very old issue of Dragon magazine once had an article in it that turned DM-ing on its ear for me: The DM's job is to create the world, the player's job is to create the story. I don't know how the editor let this slide, since TSR was putting out 100 modules a year and wanted THAT to be the story people were buying, but in practice, this theory works much better. Instead of shoehorning PCs into the first encounter of a published module then getting mad when they don't read your mind, use a module as a backdrop. Read Night of the Walking Dead front to back, familiarize yourself with the main characters and the locations and the maps. You can even have the events of the adventure happen WITHOUT the PCs if they have something interesting going on elsewhere in the campaign world. Seems kind of cheap, especially if you tracked down that old module on ebay or something, but the most fun games I've been a part of have been player-driven. It's nice when a group of guys you've been gaming with for a long time finally stop looking at you and saying "So what do we do next?"

[Epically]

That's what I eventually want to get at. Very on the ball. I had a player driven story in a super heroes campaign which was very successful.

Off topic, doesn't anybody have a map of house of strahd?

[starfalconkd]

This is going to sound awful but I don't allow my player's to play CN, NE, or CE in a standard game. My players and I usually discuss what type of game we are playing ahead of time and if it's heroic these alignments are not appropriate. Most players will use the above three alignments as an excuse to be disruptive, so blocking them out of the gate is very helpful. Once player's prove they can play the game in a mature manner I'm less restrictive. I trust most of my current group, for example, and will allow them any alignment as long as they have a good back story and an explanation why this person will work with the group. For my Darksun game two players started as CN, one still is and the other has been making slow progress towards being a better person. Several years have passed in game and he is currently NG.
But dealing with the crux of the problem, don't give up on DM'ing. It's hard work but very rewarding. One piece of advice I can offer is to learn to get ahead of your players. For example when your player wanted to eat the licorice just have the Sheriff step in his way and tell him not to enter the crime scene. Unfortunately, if the pc was just being belligerent this won't work.
Are your player's young or first timers? Some of the problems you are discussing are actually fairly typical in younger groups or amongst beginners. A Ravenloft game maybe too much for your players. You can either abandon the idea of playing in the Mists or you can lighten up the reality to allow them their fun. While this works against the general theme in Ravenloft, it's your game and you can do whatever you want with it.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Evil characters can work in Ravenloft, IMO and IME.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. They can and they do, yes. But it takes a DM and Player who both know what they want, know what the other wants, and are willing to work together and compromise.

An evil character can be part of a fascinating story, but has to remember that he isn't the only part. (Examples abound in Buffy/Angel, Dexter, etc.) He has to respect the other characters and the DM, and sometimes go with the flow (or pretend to) to keep the story moving. (Also, has to be willing to take the occasional powers check like a man and not storm out like a baby. )

[Zilfer]

Sounds like you did alright to me. As most people have said in this topic already DMing can be a difficult yet rewarding experience. Your not always going to have fun, but your going for those moments few and far inbetween where you feel like you’ve accomplished something.

For example when my players finally figured out a Mastermind Puzzle on their very last try before something bad was about to happen, or when a commoner 0 level managed to take on a CR 4 werewolf, taking out over half it’s health with 1 blow having only +1 str modifier and a horrible to hit modifier.

It’s moments like those that baffle and astonish or just leave the players in awe of what just happened. I’m sure you’ll get to those moments, and treasure them. . Don’t give up on DMing just because you’ve had a difficult time doing so. I’ve been playing DnD since I got out of high school so that’s about 2-3 years now and I’ve got maybe 1-2 years DMing experience. I still consider myself to be a new DM, and not of the best quality. I strive to make my games better however, and after awhile you’ll find it becomes easier.

When I first started out it was hard to think of more than one storyline to throw at the PC’s, now I have so many plots up in my noggin that while aren’t fully developed, could last me probably my whole DMing career…. I told myself I was going to run a Module and then step back as a DM for awhile…. That was about 2-3 months ago and they are only half way through the module? XD (we are playing weekly)

So don’t be discouraged, I’ve had similar players as well, and if they don’t like your style or your judgment call they can talk to you after the game about it, agree to disagree or they can find another game. (Or DM their own if they can find players)

As for playing an Evil Character in Ravenloft the people playing them have to realize either they are going to slip towards neutral or good or they will forever loose their character eventually down the road. There are the only conclusions.

I currently have NPC’d one character that was evil already. Definitely, a murderer and the untrustworthy sort. He does help the group, though he was a little sticker about making sure he got more of the treasure, but it didn’t hinder the group too much and he never backstabbed or betrayed them. He just continued to do evil things in the background, though one of the group tried to curse him and that resolved way more peacefully than I thought it would with the death of the person that had cursed him. (There was no OOC fight, just in game, very odd and first time I’ve seen that happen.) So that’s about the only PC he’d killed. (Ironically it was over that they had sex and the character didn’t want to be pregnant, Vistani confirmed conception and went to go curse him without telling him the she was with child… so he killed both his lover and his to be child though he never found out about the child….)

This player eventually became NPC’d because the group left him (he’s on his third powers check going on fourth I think?). Anyways they went through the woods and encountered a small girl that lived amongst spiders, a lot of them on their travel through Barovia, and she wouldn’t let him go because there was evil in his heart. (She usually eats people who had “done bad things”) Well, everyone in the group choose to leave him there to his fate telling themselves they’d be back to get them. It fooled one of the party members because they were expecting to go back and get them. The rest were like are you crazy? We’re not going back for him. First time I’ve seen a dark power’s check for most of the party. Anyways PC tried to escape but there was really no chance by himself, he was even under a current madness check that had turned him Chaotic Good for awhile when this happened. So instead of having the PC scrapped, I NPC’d him coming back from the dead and that “Death had cleared my mind” in a cutscene. So now most of the party is afraid of when he’ll show up again since he showed up once as a warning taking out the ranger and leaving him pinned to the wall with swords but not killing him.

This is my only experience with an Evil character in Ravenloft thus far but I think they are doable again if you go on a path to redemption type campaign or a fall into NPCdom campaign.


Anyways I just want to convey don’t let someone’s emotions skew the pleasures of DMing. Stick with it, one day you’ll look back at these days with fond memories. I do already! xD

[ewancummins]

Evil characters can work in Ravenloft, IMO and IME.

I guess I wasn't clear enough. They can and they do, yes. But it takes a DM and Player who both know what they want, know what the other wants, and are willing to work together and compromise.

An evil character can be part of a fascinating story, but has to remember that he isn't the only part. (Examples abound in Buffy/Angel, Dexter, etc.) He has to respect the other characters and the DM, and sometimes go with the flow (or pretend to) to keep the story moving. (Also, has to be willing to take the occasional powers check like a man and not storm out like a baby. )

Oh, I agree. I wasn't arguing with you. I was simply giving my experience , based on my games here on FoS.

[Epically]

I made a mistake; the rogue is actually NE sorry.

Anyway, the rogue has actually been role playing quite well. Currently, as the group hasn't done TOO much, he hasn't tried to find a way to "get stuff done". To the other characters, he's like the nicest guy in the group lol.

[Zilfer]

Irony eh?^

[Mortavius]

On the subject of the Powers Check, another way to look at it would be this: Would you punish a player for collecting daggers? After all, a dagger can be used to kill someone quite easily. I personally, would not. To me, it's the action that matters. When the PC takes that dagger and stabs the innocent peasant in the chest while sleeping, now that's worth a Powers Check.

Collecting daggers could be part of a physical collection. Or for self defence. If you're collecting poison, the only reason is pre-meditated murder. Even if attacked, poison coated daggers means you're going for a kill not giving attackers a chance to flee.

Well, I see your point Jester. And to be fair, we know that's what the Rogue is collecting it for. But I can come up with reasons that support the other side. What if you were collecting the poisons to create antivenoms for them? Being a Rogue, and being skilled with poison, you're concerned about it being used against you, because you know how dangerous it is.

It doesn't *have* to be pre-meditated murder. Many Rogues coat their weapons with poison and then use them on the next monster that attacks them; that's not necessarily pre-planned. And what if it's a paralytic, and the Rogue just uses it to incapacitate? See, there's too many questions.

What it comes down to in the end, is that to my knowledge, there is no history of the Dark Powers rewarding/punishing someone for having evil thoughts. This is what I mean when I roll my checks based on actions of the PCs, not what they might do in the future.

[Five]

Game comments:

- I wouldn't have ruled a Powers Check for drawing poison. Any number of reasons why there might not be evil associated to that. Seems to me is that you jumped the gun by predicting the outcome of the player's action. Save the check for the evil act (application of poison), if and when it happens. And if you want to send a message to the player, roleplay it instead of Out of Charactering it. As the PC draws more poison the candles begin to flicker, the window shutter creaks, a cold breeze sends a shiver down their spine...something that lets the player know (or feel) that there are forces watching over their character's actions. Fair warning, call it what you want. It's not punishment, but the Eye in the Sky...

- Hoods. Ah, yes. Fashion versus pragmatism. Let the players do their thing in your described world, even if you disagree. If you feel it's heat bag for a PC to drift around with hoods up, then roleplay it. It is heat/undue attention in a lot of places (not to mention hoods limit both vision and hearing--something fantasy fashion designers often forget!), unless indoors the ceiling is leaking rainwater or something of the sort. And with that comes queer looks, and a prick of a patrolman. A bad look becomes a verbal inquisition, which can lead to outright suspicion, which can lead to a pat down. Now all of a sudden possession of poison becomes a local punishment...

Now, that's not to say impose your will in game whenever you disagree with the player's choices. It's a game. You challenge the players, and the players challenge you. At the end of the day, if there is no fun to be had then what's the point of playing?

- Players who throw tantrums? Let them act like spoiled brats. It's a game man. Chill out or piss off. No dice needed.

Stick to it. A DM who stops learning (thinks they know all) is no different than a person who stops learning. They're full of piss. Learn what makes the game fun for you and your players, layer it with experience, and homebrew the rest. And if you ever start to doubt your DM abilities then think of this: even game designers are constantly improving their game. The only difference between them and us is (outside of a printing press) that we have to face the players when we change rules.

Learn from your mistakes (we all make em) and have fun.

[High Priest Mikhal]

Using poison on a blade, is like using a rusty bayonet. It's highly illegal, appointed by the Geneva Convention, because if they survive their wound, they could easily die from something like tetnus; which makes the death more painful and inhumane.

From the RAW as presented in the 3.5 Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide, poison use is not in and of itself an evil act. It's underhanded and dishonorable, and the means to which said poison is used can certainly call for a powers check, but otherwise it's not worth a powers check if used in combat (which is what the rules are assuming). Using poison outside combat, however, is a case where a powers check would be justified if there is genuine malice involved. It sounds like you made an understandable rookie DM mistake, but this player was completely out of line if they threw a fit like that.

Also remember this is not real life. Yes, by the standards of your example poison use can be construed as evil. So can killing monsters (murder and/or animal cruelty), entering haunted houses (breaking and entering and/or theft), looting the bodies of fallen foes (grave robbing), hunting down monsters who harm the populace (vigilantism), opposing a darklord who's also the ruler (treason), the list goes on. Real life morals and ethics don't work in a D&D game. That's a lesson I, too, had to learn when I was a new DM.

Also there's no UN, no Gevena Convention, sometimes no non-corrupt authority, in Ravenloft. The ideals of the modern world are very much at odds with the "realities" of fictional settings. Especially ones based on medieval Earth (Falkovnia, with its institutionalized misogyny and racism, is actually pretty close to the ugly truths of medieval European culture).

[Zilfer]

^Yeah this is something you need to learn along with your players.... for not always will "good and evil" match everyone else's table thoughts of what it good and evil. Everyone has their own oppinions, the DM is law for the game world however.