What do you expect from 4E?

[alhoon]

To be Sincere Dion, I disagree with that view. I want the "Ravenloft is a pretty world worth of defending from the rare and hidden horrors" than the "everyone is a Weirdo" thing.

[HuManBing]

Nice art is always a bonus! Bring back Fabian!

And Talon too!

[ewancummins]

To be Sincere Dion, I disagree with that view. I want the "Ravenloft is a pretty world worth of defending from the rare and hidden horrors" than the "everyone is a Weirdo" thing.

Agreed!

I like Gothic horror- it has class. IME, 'mature' is for gaming what 'adult' is for films: low class and trashy.

Any products that fail to capture the Gothic nature of the setting will also fail to capture any of my money.

[ewancummins]

Nice art is always a bonus! Bring back Fabian!

And Talon too!

That's also good stuff.

[Zoria]

Round 3

- The moral incoherence. This is a crucial point. From a moral point of view, Ravenloft is a setting inconsistent and without a principle. It’s not a world of good, surely. Therefore, is it an evil world? Those unfamiliar with the setting could easily say yes, but all we know that things are different. The villains of Ravenloft pay the price of their wickedness, and this is not exactly what is called "a evil prospective." For this reason, the answer to the previous question is: no, Ravenloft is not an evil world. Then, could we define Raveloft a world in which good and evil conflict openly, face to face, from a base of balance and equanimity? Absolutely not, because the evil enjoys a position of whole power, privilege and advantage over its enemy. Then, what is the true identity of this world?

Unfortunately, the answer leaves a bad taste in mouth: Ravenloft has not a defined identity. It seems to go from one extreme to an other confusedly, not daring to take a strong position. This is one of the major limitations of this setting. Dion said before that many players do not like Ravenloft judging it too evil. I believe instead that many do not love it simply because it’s too ambiguous: it is not white, not entirely black, but not even gray. It’s simply colorless, or colored without a coherent policy.

4th Edition should have the courage to impose a defined line. Which results in two possible solutions:

1) "Angels and Devils": this involves the introduction of genuine and deep-rooted dualism, the transformation of Ravenloft in a real battlefield where good and evil do not enjoy privileges on each other, but are free to gain or lose power by their only talent. This means that if there is a Dark Lord, there also must be a Light Lord; that if you are rewarded for your extraordinary wickedness, you should also be rewarded for your purity; that if there are domains ruled by evil, others must be ruled by good. Light and dark, angels and devils, a romantic dichotomy, which has its defined identity in the balance between powers.

2) "Hell on Earth": the setting makes a definitive turn to final (unparalleled?) darkness, breaking down any delay or hesitation. In this case, no more punishments imposed on who goes beyond the limits of evil, no more planar prisons or obstructed movements of the Dark Lords, but a world freely crossed and roamed by entities that are completely out of control and morality. Ravenloft thus become a real hell, finding a defined identity in overcoming feel-good compromises and hypocrisy of sort.

Both solutions have great appeal, both could extract Ravenloft from that kind of tasteless limbo in which it was mired in, finally leading it to a precise connotation, which I'm sure would be prized by an audience of broad.

The ambiguity does not like anyone, but everyone appreciates the courage to dare.

[Strahdsbuddy]

Zoria, I think I have to disagree with you. Ravenloft is very much grayscale on the morality, and players who think it is a "realm of evil" either haven't had it explained to them or had a DM that did them a disservice by portraying only that aspect. For one thing, your angels vs devils example sounds like Dragonlance or Forgotten Realms: there are two camps and you are on one side or the other. Dragonlance in particular seems like a war of good vs evil and little else; champions of both causes receive rewards.

The beauty of Ravenloft is in its humanistic elements. It may seem like the very evil are 'rewarded' because it is difficult to also see them as cursed. An everyman hero who doesn't have the backing of all the good gods or 9th level magic--and the person who is playing him--must realize the scale of the adventure. It may be enough to know that at the end of a mission the most important thing is that your own morals are in tact; the stink of the place did not break you and you are still your own man. That the Dark Queen Takhsis or Gabriel the Archangel did not personally endorse your efforts doesn't matter because it is really you against the darkness. This isn't terribly different from real life; we are asked to make decisions that challenge our morality daily, and must have the faith that the results of those choices are their own reward here on Earth, even without a belief in a higher consequence (Heaven or Karma or whatever).

There is an in-game mechanic, the Powers Check, that can be a manifestation of choices, though I often find it unnecissary. It is there, however as a reminder that there ARE powers that take interest in your actions while you still draw breath. My friends and I sometimes joke when we're being playfully cruel to each other "You'll grow horns for that" which is a direct reference to a failed powers check. It is there in-game but not in life, obviously. It is the reason that the darklords bust be played not as "winners" just because they have their own country. Their choices have damned them and the lesson is "But for the grace of (pick deity) go I."

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

An interesting idea, but I could not disagree more.

I think the moral issue is one of the major draws of Ravenloft. The idea that the "heroes" fight the good fight, even against insurmountable odds, and sometimes against an unknown enemy, because even a small victory is a victory. (And that the fight is sometimes within as well as without, and that both fights are equally relevant.) And that even in defeat, the fact that the battle was fought is still noble. That's what I look for in Ravenloft. I don't see it a wishy washy at all. I see it as a strong moral statement. The right choice is the right choice, and the wrong choice is the wrong one, and power or powerlessness don't enter into the equation. It's not a stance that always makes for easy roleplaying, but I'll take it over shining knights vs. cackling demons any day...

[ewancummins]

IMO, Ravenloft is a profoundly moral world, but it allows for complexity and depth. A 'good world ' or 'evil world' would be something I'd expect from an outer plane inhabited by fiends of celestials, maybe, but not from a world of mortals.
YMMV

[ewancummins]

An interesting idea, but I could not disagree more.

I think the moral issue is one of the major draws of Ravenloft. The idea that the "heroes" fight the good fight, even against insurmountable odds, and sometimes against an unknown enemy, because even a small victory is a victory. (And that the fight is sometimes within as well as without, and that both fights are equally relevant.) And that even in defeat, the fact that the battle was fought is still noble. That's what I look for in Ravenloft. I don't see it a wishy washy at all. I see it as a strong moral statement. The right choice is the right choice, and the wrong choice is the wrong one, and power or powerlessness don't enter into the equation. It's not a stance that always makes for easy roleplaying, but I'll take it over shining knights vs. cackling demons any day...

Well-put! I agree 100%

[Zoria]

The "Angels vs Demons" solution, indeed, served to make the idea of how a world should be set off to assume a strong identity, but is not the solution that I hope for Ravenloft. As for me, i'm strongly oriented towards the "Hell on Earth" hypothesis, with the Lords enabled to move beyond the boundaries of their domains to undertake complex and dynamic actions of evil.

I imagine an atmosphere of constant despair, with houses set on fire, fumes that rise in purple skies, mercenary teams that raid the cities, men and women who seek salvation in a solitary hero, a world that is not politically cemented, like the current, but unstable, troubled, intense and vibrant in terms of narrative and emotional: the Era of Unparalleled Darkness, as it's prophesied in the manuals of the third edition.

The space for a more subtle and gothic horror would yet be, but this would give to the setting the real push to get out of a deadlock that risks to become staled.

[Manofevil]

I've never felt RavenLoft needed to be redefined or reimagined so much as re-MARKETED. Even in it's earliest incarnation, RavenLoft has been olympic level gaming- the place where the players had better bring their A-game if they wanna play, cuz the whole world's stacked against them. No magical weapons or beneficent deities to bail you out here. The GM can only help you so much or it stops being Ravenloft. The players need to stay alert and use their heads if they expect to survive.
This is the way I think RL should be marketed. This is munchkin hell. Here you aren't the biggest baddest MF on the planet and you never will be. Here power must be coupled with righteousness or you're doomed, and righteousness must be coupled with wisdom or you're dead. No cheats or insider knowlege to get you around the obstacles here, and you better believe that actions have consequences. I'm certain there's a niche market out there of gamers who are sick of the shortcuts and willin g to embrace the steep challenge that Ravenloft represents.
Truthfully, I've always prefered the RavenLoft-as-prison where outlander PCs have to escape. I've never been able to get past the single fatal flaw that all native PCs have: no future. No matter now successful they are, they will never be able to topple a DarkLord (without replacing hir), they will never make even one of the realms a nice place to live, and there is no place else for them to go. They're defeated before they even start.
Also, I've seen Elminster mentioned here. In RavenLoft, Elminster has two faces: One is Van Richten, the other is Azalin. Both have risen to every challenge presented to them by the mists with varying degrees of success. Truthfully, one represents the character who spurned every temptation the mists offered, and the other, the character who accepted them all.
Sorry I think I went off on some tangents here.

[ewancummins]

Ah, but some of the domains are nice places to live, now. In most of Ravenloft invading armies are not a worry, hordes of rampaging monsters are rare, etc. Sounds nicer and safer than much of the Realms or Krynn, quite frankly.

As I see it, across the Demiplane people are born, grow up, fall in love, get married, have children, and grow old without being eaten by monsters, tortured, mind controlled, etc. Life is full of challenges , hardships, and yes- joys.

The PCs don't have to save the world three times over, become uber powerful heroes who hobnob with gods, and travel the planes to 'have a future.' They can have the satisfaction of helping the helpless, stopping villains, finding True Love, creating families and passing on their knowledge and wisdom to the next generation of heroes, maybe even getting rich or famous etc. In the end, perhaps the best thing of all is knowing that one has fought the good fight.

As for defeating darklords, who says you cannot ever beat them? It has happened in my games and in 'official' canon, too.

Maybe a new darklord will arise- but so what? Evil cannot be destroyed forever, only pushed back or thwarted for a time. That is so in the real world, as well as in the fictional world of Ravenloft.


Besides, darklords need not be the focus of a Ravenloft game. It doesn't have to follow the old formula of 'enter the domain, become ensared in darklords' plot, kill darklord to escape. ' That's just one way to use the setting.


YMMV

[ewancummins]

Azalin is trapped, doomed, thwarted by Fate, and defeated by his own flaws. He just won't admit it. Van Richten , by canon, may variously be considered dead, lost, trapped in the Mists, or perhaps even corrupted by his pursuit of vengeance and transformed into a darklord himself. He lost friends and loved ones along the way, and he cannot bring them back, no matter what.

I fail to see any 'Elminster' in either character.

Elminster is a Mary Sue who always wins, always knows what to do, and always gets his way. He's uber powerful. He dates a Greater Goddess!

Van Richten is, what, a 10th lvl thief with a few items? His accumulated knowledge and experience have saved his butt a number of times- but the Black Duke still creamed him and his whole party.

Azalin is very powerful, sure, but he is also cursed. He cannot escape Darkon and he can't even learn new spells. That's very un-Elminster.

EDIT- I do like what you've said about 'munchkin hell.' Ravenloft is definitely oriented away from hack and slash heavy powergaming and towards a more thoughtul style.

[ewancummins]

The "Angels vs Demons" solution, indeed, served to make the idea of how a world should be set off to assume a strong identity, but is not the solution that I hope for Ravenloft. As for me, i'm strongly oriented towards the "Hell on Earth" hypothesis, with the Lords enabled to move beyond the boundaries of their domains to undertake complex and dynamic actions of evil.

I imagine an atmosphere of constant despair, with houses set on fire, fumes that rise in purple skies, mercenary teams that raid the cities, men and women who seek salvation in a solitary hero, a world that is not politically cemented, like the current, but unstable, troubled, intense and vibrant in terms of narrative and emotional: the Era of Unparalleled Darkness, as it's prophesied in the manuals of the third edition.

The space for a more subtle and gothic horror would yet be, but this would give to the setting the real push to get out of a deadlock that risks to become staled.

I disagree. Ravenloft already has a strong identity: Gothic. What you describe might be an interesting dystopian setting, but it seems to be very different from a Gothic setting. Where you see a problem, I see the central focus of the setting.

I'm into 'gritty' but not 'dystopian.' Constant despair doesn't sound like much fun. The heroes need something to care about, something worth defending. You also need zones of of normalcy, calm, and peace so that the intrusion of evil forces will be experienced as a dramatic contrast or a creeping subversion of the proper order of things. If it rains every day for centuries, after a while people would stop hoping for sunlight. If the world is completely crapsack, why even care?

YMMV
I'm not saying that you are advocating bad/wrong/fun, just giving you my personal opinion.

[Zoria]

You also need zones of of normalcy, calm, and peace so that the intrusion of evil forces will be experienced as a dramatic contrast

It's important to remember that in order to be perceived in all its grandeur, the horror must break unexpectedly in everyday life: when it becomes a rule, it loses value, trivializes.

As you see, we are saying the same thing. The importance of "normalcy" is undeniable. On the other hand, my support for both normalcy and constant despair should not be considered a contradiction. Try to think a soldier who, during his march to the besieged city, stops on the roadside to observe the beauty of a flower: this is normalcy. The sudden blast of a bomb a few meters away lead him back to reality, tearing him out from his contemplation: this is the dramatic contrast to which you were refering to. Between these two moments, fits the constant despair I was talking about: that feeling of persistent apprehension that even during the contemplation of the flower has never ceased to operate in the heart of the soldier in a latent form.

The "constant despair" is not necessarily a denial of normality, nor the obstacle to the right alternation between normalicy and drama. For constant despair, I mean instead that feeling of danger and caution that must never abandon the characters of a gothic setting, that emotional stress that if loose or not properly fed threatens to turn the story into a saccharine gothic and bland sauce.

My impression is that, in an attempt to make Ravenloft more livable, the 3th edition has tilted the balance between normalicy and drama too much in favor of the first, making Ravenloft a bit tasteless accordingly.
What we need in the 4th edition is just that : salt, much more salt than before.