Gazetteer Metaplot: Speculations on the Fate of S

[cure]

A minor point of clarification, is or isn't Gaby's father Drakov? Or alternatively the GC?

[Matthew L. Martin]

A minor point of clarification, is or isn't Gaby's father Drakov? Or alternatively the GC?

Gabrielle's father was Vlad Drakov, at least in RL 3E, although they never wanted to make this too explicit.

[DilisnyaRevenge]

Of course, when he accomplishes this, it would likely end all darklord curses (e.g. Vlad could actually win a war and would crush Borca, etc.) Chaos ensues.

No. Remember, John said that while the fallout from Azalin's plan would have a major impact on some parts of the Core, others wouldn't notice at all.

That's right... He did say that. Hmm... Interesting. I am thinking too broad here.

I do seem to recall one of the unintentional consequences was that Borca would get crushed (because of the reasons spelled out in Gaz IV). My assumption was that this would be via a Vlad/Mal alliance that invades from both sides. So if the curses are still in effect, we would have to assume that there would need to be some other outside influence that would allow this invasion to succeed... (i.e. we still have to get around Vlad's curse).

If whatever Azalin does to the 13 Dukkars sets Malocchio free, I could see him directly helping Vlad invade, and therefore crush Borca.

Of course, I could be assuming waaaaaay too much that Borca being smashed was even an unintentional consequence of Azalin's plan and not a separate event altogether. Lots and lots of wild assumptions....

As to how he would use the 13 dukkars to accomplish this, I have no idea.

That one I didn't guess either. I think I'm going to hold out a little bit longer on that one . . .

No doubt! I can tell you are having a blast seeing what everyone is coming up with....

....or least watching us fumble about in the dark!

[Deewun]

I've gotta say, I never got into the 3rd edition Ravenloft stuff (I'm a purist) until recently, but this thread makes me happy to be a part of this forum. To be part of a group of fans that are STILL creating, defining, and getting feedback from the folks who made the campaign and realms we love. It is surprisingly exciting!

Figured I'd share, as I crack open my gazetteers to catch up.

[whalejudge]

I'm not so sure Borca would be smashed by Falkovnia; I'm thinking Borca (and Invidia, for that matter) would get smashed and absorbed by Barovia, as Strahd still wants the Dilisnyas dead. The poisons under the control of Ivan and Ivana would still be a challenge Drakov's forces, while Strahd's most poweful minions are immune.

[Joël of the FoS]

*mindblasted*

That nearly all-was-there-all-along is awesomely cool. I guessed she was Az's clone, but the rest is just wow.

[Joël of the FoS]

I had a strange theory of a plan where the 13 dukkars kill the darklords they are often close to, or take them in their reality wrinkle to exit their respective domains to annoy the dark powers / shatter the planes as we know it.

Since he can't exit the cage, let's blow it, or get a bargaining power in the process.

How it involves is son is the piece I can't fit in the puzzle.

Joël

[Matthew L. Martin]

I had a strange theory of a plan where the 13 dukkars kill the darklords they are often close to, or take them in their reality wrinkle to exit their respective domains to annoy the dark powers / shatter the planes as we know it.

Since he can't exit the cage, let's blow it, or get a bargaining power in the process.

How it involves is son is the piece I can't fit in the puzzle.

Joël

My guess from December 1, 2003: "Hear me, my tormentors! Either return my son to me, or we will tear this land of mists apart piece by piece!"--Azalin Rex at the onset of the ToUD?

I wasn't right, though.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Ok Im throwing odd ideas round in my brain here, but how about:

Lucita aderre is the 13th Dukkar. I just reread her entry in SoDR and although it could be interpreted many ways, her father is a point of ambiguity. That woudl be full circle would it not (especially if that was the one of the first books the Kargatane worked on in 3rd ed)?

But the Vistani know damn well that her older brother's a Dukkar, so they ought to be watching Lucita like a hawk, ready to kill or imprison her, if they suspected she had anything to do with the Dukkars. Plus, she's the wrong sex. A wolfwere Lucita could change her apparent gender, but Matton would have to be her father then, and she can't have two biological daddies.

[DilisnyaRevenge]

OK so we have figured out a great deal about the plans for Gaz series in this thread. It has been exciting and at some times mind-blowing...

We have had the following things confirmed (please correct me if I am wrong on any of these points):

* The end of the Gaz series would have been in Bluetspur.
* The Familiar from the Carnival is the 13th Dukkar.
* S would have concealed the 13th Dukkar from Azalin in the final report.
* There is the possibility of an "Ultimate Dukkar" that the GC could create with Madame Eva that would allow the him to escape, if only he could find a way to get to her.
* S is indeed a clone of Azalin.
* Azalin's goal with the 13 dukkars was not to escape, but to end his curse so he can gain new knowledge and ultimately get his son back.

* The Gaz series would not have ended well for S, by her own choice.
* Azalin would be left howling at the end of the Gaz series.

So I think that leaves us with two major unanswered questions about S (specifically):

Question One: What ultimately was going to happen to S at the end of the series?

This seems to be the most popular answer:

I seem to recall someone floating the notion that S's adventures would end with her incorporation into the God-brain, which would certainly fit the bill for "horrible end" . That would also fit the bill as "conscious choice" and "likely to send Azalin insane with rage" if she were to do it to keep Azalin from getting the information he needed to bring the Grandiose Gazetteer Scheme(tm) to completion.

I personally love this idea and it seems to fit the evidence we have, but it has yet to be confirmed or denied by our resident information source. So, I will ask directly (assuming of course Matthew still feels like answering questions )... Is this the fate of S? If not, is her fate related directly to the final Gaz stop in Bluetspur?

Question Two: What was the ultimate plan that Azalin had for S beyond the Gazetters?

I think this is a dangling thread that has gotten very little discussion and now that we have a few more pieces of the puzzle, I am curious to see what ideas everyone else has.

If I were to make a wild guess given the facts that we have, could Azalin have intended S to ultimately give birth to his reborn Irik? Just a crazy guess given that is his ultimate goal. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

[Matthew L. Martin]

Question One: What ultimately was going to happen to S at the end of the series?

This seems to be the most popular answer:

I seem to recall someone floating the notion that S's adventures would end with her incorporation into the God-brain, which would certainly fit the bill for "horrible end" . That would also fit the bill as "conscious choice" and "likely to send Azalin insane with rage" if she were to do it to keep Azalin from getting the information he needed to bring the Grandiose Gazetteer Scheme(tm) to completion.

I personally love this idea and it seems to fit the evidence we have, but it has yet to be confirmed or denied by our resident information source. So, I will ask directly (assuming of course Matthew still feels like answering questions )... Is this the fate of S? If not, is her fate related directly to the final Gaz stop in Bluetspur?

This was the intent by the time the Gazetteer metaplot was set, yes. Feeding herself to the God-Brain would have kept Azalin from pulling her soul back to Avernus.

Question Two: What was the ultimate plan that Azalin had for S beyond the Gazetters?

I think this is a dangling thread that has gotten very little discussion and now that we have a few more pieces of the puzzle, I am curious to see what ideas everyone else has.

If I were to make a wild guess given the facts that we have, could Azalin have intended S to ultimately give birth to his reborn Irik? Just a crazy guess given that is his ultimate goal. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Wow.

You got it. I really didn't expect anyone to get it.

If anyone has any other guesses, share them now if you want them confirmed--come Halloween, the information I've gathered goes up on this thread.

[HuManBing]

That's an amazing plotline right there. I also never guessed at such an outcome, though in hindsight I suppose it makes perfect sense.

A few questions, on that idea:

1. By bringing back Irik, how would that have freed Azalin? His last two big attempts to escape Ravenloft were based on his own power (Grand Conjunction, and Demilich status). Would this sign of concern for his son have finally redeemed him enough so the Dark Powers let him go?

2. Even if S. personally failed, could Azalin have repeated his impregnation efforts a second time? Granted, it would take another generation to come to fruition, but it seems like a lot of S.'s negative reactions to Azalin could be traced to his earlier (poor) diplomacy with her. If he was a less imposing figure to her replacement, then she might not know or begrudge him this last task.

[Matthew L. Martin]

That's an amazing plotline right there. I also never guessed at such an outcome, though in hindsight I suppose it makes perfect sense.

A few questions, on that idea:

1. By bringing back Irik, how would that have freed Azalin? His last two big attempts to escape Ravenloft were based on his own power (Grand Conjunction, and Demilich status). Would this sign of concern for his son have finally redeemed him enough so the Dark Powers let him go?

The metaplot was never worked out that far, but Azalin has given up on freedom at this point. "Dreams are tenacious things, little scholar, but even they must die."

2. Even if S. personally failed, could Azalin have repeated his impregnation efforts a second time? Granted, it would take another generation to come to fruition, but it seems like a lot of S.'s negative reactions to Azalin could be traced to his earlier (poor) diplomacy with her. If he was a less imposing figure to her replacement, then she might not know or begrudge him this last task.

Again, never developed to that point. And Azalin had plenty of hurdles to overcome before even considering a replacement . . .

[Matthew L. Martin]

S's origin:

S is one of Azalin's clones, a la Death.
It's why he's taken such an interest in her. She's an abberation.
She was one of the last clones, and since she was the only female one,
Azalin assumed that little of himself was in here.
So she ignored her for her entire life, which is not coincidentally why she's the only one still alive.
Well, alive and not drooling in some corner somewhere.

The big reveal planned for Gaz VI/VII:

Gazetteer VI: The Stormy Seas:

* Azalin probably supplies S with her own ship and crew to cart her
around. They stick around into the next gazetteer.
* S now knows that Azalin is looking for something specific, but not
what exactly.
* Azalin ups the ante. Until now, S has been engaging in a survey of
"the Core." Now Azalin tells S there are still "others" out there, and
she'll keep looking until she finds them. She's trapped in this job
until she's searched the *entire* (boundless, uncharted) Land of Mists.
* Defiant, she thinks back to how her daughter died. S-girl was attacked
by one of S's interrogation subjects and mortally wounded. S-girl begged
her mother to let her die -- to let her rest in peace. S wouldn't do it.
S sent her daughter into Il Aluk, thinking the Slain City would preserve
the girl's intelligence (let's pencil in that she was turning into a
ghoul). S also hoped that this would give her a cooperative agent within
the city. Didn't work. Undead S-girl just gave her mother one rueful
glare, then walked off into the heart of the city, never to be seen
again.
* S isn't going out that way. She determines her own fate, by golly, and
she'll be no one's slave. S tosses herself off a cliff into the crashing
surf far below.
* S wakes up on the same island a week later, unharmed. Flabbergasted,
she returns to the cliffs and searches the rocks, trying to see how she
could have possibly survived.
* S FINDS HER OWN BROKEN, WATER-LOGGED CORPSE.
* S realizes she's trapped. Death is no escape; Azalin will just keep
bringing her back until she's done.
* S is defeated, for now, but she's still plotting to extricate herself
from the situation as the ship takes her into the Misty Border, headed
for the lands beyond.

The Master Plans . . .

We hadn't worked out all the kinks, but the basic plan was that the Gentleman Caller was trying to breed his way out of the demiplane. His first attempt, Malocchio, was also the closest he'd came to success, since the mother was herself so powerful. However, since Malocchio ended up such a disappointment, he'd set his eyes on the only woman in the demiplane who could produce a demonspawn guaranteed to escape Ravenloft: Madame Eva. (It's not *that* icky -- taking into account that Eva is "as old as she feels," while under the GC's sway she would revert to a youthful, vibrant appearance.)

The problem with that plan is that Eva didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday, so the GC is stymied as to how to get at her.

The basic arrangement that Azalin and the GC were going to enter into was this (we didn't work out all the details):

* Azalin would somehow help the GC seduce Madame Eva.
* While the GC keeps Madame Eva out of commision, the power of the magic trapping Malocchio Aderre in Invidia would be weakened. Azalin and the GC would then break the spell, freeing Malocchio again.
* This would be a necessary step in gathering all thirteen existing
dukkars in one location, creating a "blind spot" that not even the Dark
Powers could perceive or affect.
* While hidden from the DPs (and freed from his curse), Azalin would
develop a spell --sort of an arcane, forced /reincarnation/ -- that
would stick Irik's spirit in another sort-of-cloned baby Azalin would
create, with himself as the father and S as the mother.

That was Azalin's *plan*, anyway. In the metaplot-as-written, he never
gets to try it (because S sacrifices herself to the God-Brain without
revealing the identity of the thirteenth dukkar).

Follow-up notes

> Considering how close Azalin is by the end of the Gaz storyline--he
> knows the identities of 12 of the 13--one would think S' last middle
> finger to her patron/progenitor/father/twin would only be a stumbling
> block, not an absolute disaster. Couldn't Azalin determine the identity
> of the thirteenth with other minions, or by some other means?
> Otherwise, it's a bit like setting out to build a house and then tearing
> the whole thing down when you don't have enough bricks to finish the
> chimney.

Well, theoretically true, but -- at least as I saw it -- the missing
13th dukkar has been watched over by a ghaele eladrin since before his
birth, and she's been taking great care to ensure that he never falls
into evil hands. Plus, since he's been protected by the skurra-vera
since the moment he was born, the Familiar's fiendish nature has never
been able to manifest, so he's pretty much completely under the radar.
(This is also why she doesn't just kill him -- until/unless his fiendish
heritage is unleashed, he's basically an innocent bystander in all of this.)

Another weak link in the plan was that the Beast of the Hills -- the
most outwardly fiendish of the 13 -- wasn't evil at all, and wouldn't
have gone along with the plan either. Add in that Malocchio is still
trapped, and that freeing him requires taking down Madame Eva (whose
powers, in their own way, certainly rival Azalin's), and that the
remaining ten dukkars aren't inclined to cooperate like good little
children to begin with, and Azalin definitely has a lot of loose threads
to sew up (which he wasn't going to get to do within the scope of the
Gazetteers).

Ultimately, I saw the Gazetteers as being more specificially about S and
her moral journey than as being about the grandiose metaplot going on in
the margins, so that's where my focus went.

I never much thought about events post-S's self-sacrifice circa 762 BC.
By then, I assumed 4th edition D&D would be imminent (if it hadn't
already arrived) and that the end of the Gaz series would likely
coincide with the end of 3rd edition Ravenloft.

For what it's worth, I liked the idea of Azalin actually *succeeding*
and momentarily beating the Dark Powers at their own game. He *would*
get a second chance to raise Irik in his own likeness, though likely at
dire cost (to himself, the western Core in general, Darkon in
particular, and the Vistani). Of course, that doesn't mean Irik wouldn't
turn out to be just as good-hearted as he was the first time around. If
Azalin *did* succeed in 762 BC, Irik would be 13 at the time of the ToUD
in 775 BC. (Whatever that would have meant.)

As for Van Richten's role in the ToUD, I never thought about it much
(or, for that matter, the ToUD in general). The most consideration I
ever put into his role was that at the darkest hour, he might simply
entreat some darklord -- likely Azalin -- to recall his better nature
and get him to back down from some truly apocalyptic deed. I also
favored the "de-aging" ending of Bleak House, which I think would put
Van Richten in 775 BC back at roughly the same physical age he was at
when Baron Metus killed his son and kicked off his monster slaying
career -- about 35, I think. (Whatever that would have meant.)

[Brandi]

Another weak link in the plan was that the Beast of the Hills -- the
most outwardly fiendish of the 13 -- wasn't evil at all, and wouldn't
have gone along with the plan either.

I can't be the only one who now pictures the Beast as somewhat like the Monster in the Darkness in Order of the Stick-- can I?