Talk:Himmelsk Naeve Pieter Jergaar

How much of this is canon, and how much is extrapolation from canon?

Answer

My response follows,

cure

CANON: Pieter Jergaar is the Himmelsk Naeve ("Divine Fist") of the Church of the Lawgiver. He commands the Iron Faith across the known world from the Black Citadel-Fane in Kantora.

CANON: Himmelsk Naeve Pieter Jergaar seems to have things well in hand so far as Nova Vaasa is concerned. The Church of the Lawgiver has a far tighter grip on affairs that matter to it than the current prince imagines.

EXTRAPOLATION OF THE MOST MINIMAL SORT [unless we chose to ignore its Lawful Evil alignment]: And it is willing to bolster his authority precisely to the extent that the result is a strengthening of its own.

CANON: In principle the Iron Faith does not oppose the ambitions of Othmar Bolshnik.

FACT: The leaders of the Church would be threatened in their personal authority by the reincarnation of Sainted Prince Gorkyn.

INFERENCE [otherwise why indulge a wayward neutral evil self-interested bastard who treats with the likes of Malkan?]: What they see in Othmar is rather a whelp that can be made into a reliable watchdog with sufficient time and sufficient bones.

CANON: The position of the Church in Hazlan is far more complex and far less acceptable. The reception of the Lawgiver's message among the Hazlani could hardly have gone better. Slaver and slave, rich and poor, Mulan and Rashemani all found much in the doctrine to take to heart. And perhaps the satraps, appointed by Hazlik to govern in his sted, benefitted from it most of all. But this bloodless coup has left the Church of the Lawgiver in the extraordinarily uncomfortable position of blessing the authority of an individual that it finds contemptible on nigh every level. Worse, just as Hazlik madly tore up the law forbidding the practice of arcane magic, he could wake up tomorrow and ban religion. But aside from mere whim, what would ever possess him to do so?

CANON: Himmelsk Naeve Pieter Jergaar has ordered that the hardline of the Iron Faith be maintained in Hazlan in respect to the blasphemy that is the practice of arcane magic. Pave Stavroz Vatsisk has failed so far to obey this order,

EXTRAPOLATION OF THE MOST MINIMAL SORT [unless we wish to assume that the Pave is simply mad]: having some appreciation of the consequences. Short of simply proscribing the Iron Faith, Hazlik could declare the independence of the Hazlani church, he could see to the deaths or disappearances of church leaders, he could impose a pave of his own choosing, or he could ensorcel the pave or other church leaders. None of these things would be good for Stavroz Vatsisk personally or, he no doubt reasons, the Church of the Lawgiver.

QUESTION: Whether the Himmelsk Naeve himself fails to appreciate the consequences or appreciates them all too well is the question.

CHARITABLE INTERPRETATION (/QUESTION): It would be unwise, however, to assume that a man who has climbed to the highest rung of the Iron Faith leaves reports unread or is incapable of understanding their import.

QUESTION: What game then is Pieter Jergaar playing at?

QUESTION: Sainted Prince Gorkyn could be trusted to make the most of any such unlawful reply by Hazlik to the right and proper application of the will of the Lawgiver. Could Prince Othmar? Could it be that the Divine Fist is betting that the prospect of becoming the conqueror-king is the bone that will put iron in the belly of the Bolshnik whelp and make of him a respectable and worthy leader of the Vaasi nation? The Himmelsk Naeve may not be as content as his Pave to count the days until death carries the aged and deranged wizard off to the Hell of Slaves, knowing full well that such powerful individuals rarely go easily or quickly.

FUTURE POSSIBILITIES: But the Himmelsk Naeve needs to be aware of the possibility of a quite different, but related, turn of events. The Pave of Hazlin has a momentous decision before him: to obey the head of his church, and risk his life and that of his church, or to offer Hazlik a reformed Hazlani church loyal and obedient to the Red Wizard.

HEDGED OBSERVATION [Maybe he is a dyed in the wool proscastinator rather than a strategic thinker]: And from a strategic prospective, the only grounds for not having already chosen and acted upon the former, would be the choice of, and secret negotiations toward, the latter. Stavroz Vatsisk may need to be removed from play without delay. Of course he could be offered up as the proof that Hazlik has ensorcelled fathers of the Iron Faith.

FACT: But permitting even the appearance of a schism would be profoundly embarrassing to Himmelsk Naeve Pieter Jergaar.

INFERENCE [the author gave us the Archibishop of Kantora and a fellow Bolshinik as a leading member of the movement with the ear of Othmar; were the Himmelsk a member that would have been more than worthy of being noted not merely as well but instead; additionally, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Himmelsk is trying to pick a war with anyone other than Hazlan; plus, charitably, we should not assume him a warmongering idiot; one does not come to lead such an institution without a sense of strategy]: Pieter Jergaar is almost certainly not a member of the Gorkynites. The launching of an indisscriminate holy war across the Core without first having righted the ship in Hazlan would be the height of indisciplined foolishness. Insofar as the Gorkynites can be manipulated in support of a solution to the Hazlani problem, the Himmelsk Naeve has no qualms about doing so. Equally, so long as the movement does not gain an unhelpful influence over Prince Othmar, its witlessness is adequately balanced by its good intentions.

Proposal

Originally, I had thought that canon information and this sort of inference/observation, etc. would be split into separate sections and clearly labelled. But I see the benefit from a readability standpoint to put some of them inline. I've created Template:Spec to handle the labeling of such Speculation (inference, observation, extrapolation, and questions.) As a trial, I've applied it to the appropriate sections in this page, and split the large amount of speculation at the end into its own non-canon section. What does everyone think? Acceptable compromise? -- Gonzoron 16:00, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Reply

Yes, that looks promising.

As I have time over the next week, I will go back to the original material and see if any of the "speculation" flags should be removed or others added.