Historical Questions

[alhoon]

I need some help to flesh out a realistic economic system using D&D Next economy.
I've checked this, but it doesn't cover everything.
http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/blueroom/demog.htm

Questions:
- How many peasants, on average, were need to support a knight in a high medieval \ late-medieval economy?
- How many people an average barony in HRE and France had? What was an expected range?

[Ryan Naylor]

Somewhere between 15 and 30 peasants per noble, depending on the quality of the field and the opulence of the noble's household during the Middle Ages. As climate and farming techniques changed (and court structures, for that matter), the number varied.

In England according to the Domesday book, it was about 1:20. In Scotland, it would have been much lower, whereas in France, it would have been much closer to 1:15.

If you mean people per barony, it's about 10,000. If you mean people per manor (which would be ruled by a knight, not a baron), it's about 500.

[Boris Drakov]

That sounds a bit too few for a nation of 15-20 million in France?

Would there then be a million knights?

In 1789 nobles constituted barely 0,5% of the population.

Or am I mucking up the definition of knight here?

[Ryan Naylor]

A million seigneur, ecuyer, chevalier, barons, vicomtes, comtes, and marquis, yes. "Knight" in this case basically just means they're landowners supported by the labour of others. "Squire" is another.

Also, the bottom 3 ranks don't actually count as nobility. They're just gentry. A baron (the lowest noble title) might have 20 chevaliers, each of which had 20 seigneur under them, each of which had 20 peasants under them. That's an extreme example, but even at 0.5% of the population, there's 100,000 nobles running around. If each true noble had 2 knights and their families under their command and supported by their estates, you can make up the numbers easily.

Finally, there were drastic changes between the 11th and 18th centuries (through the Middles Ages, the Renaissance, and the Englightenment), which further influence how the numbers fall out between the figures I've quoted and the French Revolution.

[alhoon]

Works. Thanks Ryan.
Running the numbers using life-expenses etc, I got manors at about 350-500 people for D&D.
I have gentry/nobility at 1% though like 3rd edition did.
While in my drafts I have petty nobility with 20-50 peasants under them, they are few. I mostly have manors of 350-500 people directly under a knight family. I guess if I added a round of vassals under a knight, I would get 500 people to the manor and aristocracy (including gentry) at 3%-4%.

[alhoon]

Hmmm... D&D numbers don't support the existence of gentry.
If each serf pays 30% of what he makes and they take back (after-tax) 2silver per day or 6gp/month, it means they pay like 2.5gp/month to their liege.

Comfortable lifestyle for 3 people* is 9gp/day or 270gp per month. That's over 100 people for each sir, not 20.
* I assume a family of 4-5 under one roof along with a servant or two costs as much as 3 people.

Gentry according to Wikipedia didn't have to work to support their lifestyle. That's not possible with D&D economy.
Oh well... not a biggy. In D&D it seems petty aristocrats under the "Lord of the Manor" would have to work after all for 2-4gp/day.

[Quinntonia]

Gentry according to Wikipedia didn't have to work to support their lifestyle. That's not possible with D&D economy.
Oh well... not a biggy. In D&D it seems petty aristocrats under the "Lord of the Manor" would have to work after all for 2-4gp/day.

Well, gentry don't have to labour to support themselves. They may have holdings, business interests, lands, interests in ventures, etc.

[Glim]

Somewhere between 15 and 30 peasants per noble, depending on the quality of the field and the opulence of the noble's household during the Middle Ages. As climate and farming techniques changed (and court structures, for that matter), the number varied.

In England according to the Domesday book, it was about 1:20. In Scotland, it would have been much lower, whereas in France, it would have been much closer to 1:15.

If you mean people per barony, it's about 10,000. If you mean people per manor (which would be ruled by a knight, not a baron), it's about 500.

When you say peasants do you mean free men or serfs? Households or individuals?

Gentry according to Wikipedia didn't have to work to support their lifestyle. That's not possible with D&D economy.
Oh well... not a biggy. In D&D it seems petty aristocrats under the "Lord of the Manor" would have to work after all for 2-4gp/day.

Well, gentry don't have to labour to support themselves. They may have holdings, business interests, lands, interests in ventures, etc.

Yeah. I'm no historian, but I don't have a hard time imagining a gentleman coming up with 2-4gp/day, without resorting to something vulgar like actual work. Toll from roads and rivers, market rights in towns, customs duties and other trade taxes, levied fines, taxes on industry instead of land-based tax, serfs buying freedom, conscripts buying off military service. The list is pretty long.

Although he tries hard by focusing on opulent lifestyles instead of mundane things like military and infrastructural upkeep, alhoon's not thinking like a nobleman. After all, if the numbers don't add up, clearly you're simply not taxing enough!

[Ryan Naylor]

I mean both free men and serfs.