[QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

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[QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by NeoTiamat »

Well, if Gonzoron can set up a thread to discuss his article, I can do the same. :wink: Mostly, I'm curious as to whether anyone is planning to use these things, what people think, and so forth. They're both fairly big projects to cast into the abyss, and I want to see what ripples up.

Practically, I've also got two more Domains written up, Falkovnia and Lamordia, which will I hope appear in QTR22, so I'm curious as to whether there are any particular critiques or improvements people would like. The Domains are written, so I'm not going to do them over completely, but still, curious to see what people think.
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by alhoon »

I do. Barovia is more than a few sleepy villages where people don't go out at night, controlled by a distant but despotic lord + some Gundarakite rebels

For Pharazia... it's interesting but so far I don't understand the "empire" thing. I'll have to read it carefully because an empire of domains sounds... intriguing but difficult to pull. If it comes down to that, I could just use the info for the Domain of Pharazia.
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by IrvyneWolfe »

I loved the take on Barovia and look forward to implementing it in my game.

Pharazia was more problematic for me for many reasons. The radical change in the geography of the core, and an article that says nifty magic things are unbelievably ancient and rare but where there are djinn selling things at market and no one seems to care. Finally there's Diamabel. You were absolutely correct that the closest thing to a Muslim domain in Ravenloft should not have a zealot with delusions of god-hood as the lord, but your article doesn't really present a strong alternative, and it turned what should have been a chance to make Diamabel into a three dimensional character into a slight disappointment.

I don't want to seem like I'm completely slamming your article, I'm not. The truth is there was so much great fluff there that it made me care enough to complain about the things I didn't like. I'd love to see what you have for Lamordia and Falkovnia.
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by NeoTiamat »

alhoon wrote:For Pharazia... it's interesting but so far I don't understand the "empire" thing. I'll have to read it carefully because an empire of domains sounds... intriguing but difficult to pull. If it comes down to that, I could just use the info for the Domain of Pharazia.
Basically? Supernatural Authority =/= Political Authority. Pharazia claims political control over these areas, but as far as the Dark Powers are concerned, they're separate domains.

Two examples:
Sebua is a Domain. The Darklord of Sebua is Tiyet. But the place is an uninhabited desert. On the political map, it's marked as the 'Sebua' region of the desert, and is considered part of Pharazia. There might be some Emir who has it as part of his territory, but he probably doesn't give a damn about it (and he and his city are likely to be in Pharazia-the-Domain as well).

G'Henna is a Domain. The Darklord of G'Henna is Yagno Petrovna. He's both the Darklord and the political ruler of G'Henna. Technically he swears political fealty to Sultan Daud II, though he isn't part of the Pharazian Domain, and if you asked someone in Dementlieu, they'd tell you that G'Henna is a vassal state of the Pharazian Empire. Of course, given the weak state of Pharazian central authority, this is pretty much a legal fiction.
IrvyneWolfe wrote:Pharazia was more problematic for me for many reasons. The radical change in the geography of the core, and an article that says nifty magic things are unbelievably ancient and rare but where there are djinn selling things at market and no one seems to care. Finally there's Diamabel. You were absolutely correct that the closest thing to a Muslim domain in Ravenloft should not have a zealot with delusions of god-hood as the lord, but your article doesn't really present a strong alternative, and it turned what should have been a chance to make Diamabel into a three dimensional character into a slight disappointment.

I don't want to seem like I'm completely slamming your article, I'm not. The truth is there was so much great fluff there that it made me care enough to complain about the things I didn't like. I'd love to see what you have for Lamordia and Falkovnia.
Well. Caring enough to complain is an improvement. :wink:

Couple of things: First is that it helps to separate 'fantastic' races from 'high magic', which is something I should have clarified more. Basically, things with lots of magical power, Djinn and such, tend not to be easily accessible. Fantasy races, on the other hand, are more known, though still uncommon. Gnolls, Vishkanya, etc. But your typical gnoll is not going to have any more access to high magic than your typical human. He's bigger and fuzzier and has a lot more teeth, but he isn't a grand supernatural being.

That said, they're also pretty easy to excise. The idea was to harken back to Sinbad and stories in the Arabian Nights, where people are basically normal people, but a Roc is treated as an occupational hazard and not as a monster beyond comprehension. You can chop out the wemics and stuff and emphasize the "Djinn are far and exotic" pretty easily.

Diamabel... uh, think of it as more a case of "I'm focused on trying to fix the Domain, and fixing the Darklord is beyond my mission statement." Diamabel, in his original conception, was deeply problematic, to the point where I think you'd need to rewrite him pretty much from scratch to make him into a classically Gothic character. And since Pharazia is already longer than the other Domains by about 40%, this wasn't something I wanted to get into (I'm trying to keep these things at a length where someone would actually read them).

Now, personally, I think the New Diamabel is still pretty interesting. There's hints at all sorts of Fallen Angel and Agent of Destiny stuff in there, that if I ever actually used in a campaign could be spun out into all kinds of plots. But it's not really covered in the article.

As for Lamordia and Falkovnia, probably going to have to wait till Next Year, unless Gonzoron thinks spoiling them is appropriate.
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by NeoTiamat »

Also, I am deeply gratified that Barovia meets approval. It's always been the archetypal Ravenloft domain, and one of my personal favorite domains (P. N. Elrod's I, Strahd is what got me into gaming). So since I have, by curious conflux of chance, become a Balkan scholar, I started shoving various bits of weird Balkan history into it.

Actually, if I was still writing it, I'd have probably emphasized the possibility for truly bizarre folk traditions and rituals in Barovia. I've got a Bulgarian Kukeri mask sitting on the table next to my computer that is pretty much designed to give some player the creeps.

Pharazia, for the record, was very heavily inspired by GURPS Arabian Nights.
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by alhoon »

Oh, I liked the original Diamabel! :(

Anyway, when I say "I can't figure it out" is... why Yagno swears fealty to a Sultan that has different religion than Yagno's intolerant religion? And what about the famine in Yagno's land?
It'll also be difficult to pull, because I kinda liked the Diamabel clerics and the intolerant religion, and I don't like so much sparkly magic or open weirdness. No flying carpet taxis. So I'd have to change some things. But perhaps I'd do away with them; we have intolerant domains anyway.
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by NeoTiamat »

I suspect these are questions that are best answered in a write-up of G'Henna. The usual answer is that back when fealty was actually being sworn, the Pharazians had a seriously impressive army. Nowadays, it's mostly tradition.

And for my part, I kind of wanted to move away from the intolerant Muslim fanatic trope for Pharazia, for much the same reasons Diamabel himself gets tweaked. The sources for Pharazia, the Abbasids and the Ottomans, weren't both fairly good at integrating populations different than themselves. Since Pharazia is kind of a decaying power, it's a moot point, but at its height I'd think it'd have something like the millet system that the Ottomans had (my knowledge biases are showing here, since I know way more about the Ottomans than the Abbasids, though the latter are more appropriate origins).
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

NeoTiamat wrote:Well, if Gonzoron can set up a thread to discuss his article, I can do the same. :wink:
Careful... follow that path too far, and pretty soon you'll be banning spammers, fixing broken links, resetting passwords, and uploading avatars.... the horror, the horror....
NeoTiamat wrote:As for Lamordia and Falkovnia, probably going to have to wait till Next Year, unless Gonzoron thinks spoiling them is appropriate.
Well, I'm not really in charge of QtR, that's mostly Joel and Jester now (formerly ScS). With that said, it's up to you. Isabella's NV article, for example, was posted on the forum over a year before it was submitted to QtR, and Jester worked on his Dark Shadows rules on the forum as well, so it's not unheard of. Personally, I would wait and build suspense, but that's probably the Tindal in me wanting to drive "business" for QtR.

As I said in the QTR thread, these two domains were a huge highlight of the book for me. I'd thought Gazetteer I was so thorough that there wouldn't be any Barovia left to mine, but you managed to infuse it with enough real-world flavor to make it come alive in a new way.

And like IrvyneWolfe, my only disappointment with Pharazia was Diamabel himself, or the lack thereof. Since a domain should be infused with the essence of its darklord, I would love to see what about Diamabel's backstory would produce such a varied and exciting domain of tales and wonders. ( Perhaps a Ravenloft-ized version of Scheherazade's king? the deaths of 1000 wives would certainly qualify him.)

But I've always loved the idea of domains where the darklord is NOT the ruler, or even the obvious suspect. So I adore this "empire" of related domains concept. Personally, I would probably keep it as a cluster, connected to Hazlan via mistway, rather than grafting it physically onto the Core, but that's just my preference. Again, adding the spice of real-world culture and a dash of literature really makes the place feel alive.
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by Isabella »

The article as it currently stands wasn't really meant to be about Diamabel - the write up that exists is mostly to inform what he's doing on a day to day basis in the domain. Consider Diamabel a different article entirely. In other words, he hasn't really been written yet. ;) The reason you're dissatisfied with the write up is because it isn't one and wasn't really meant to be.

There's really a lot of things Diamabel could be. The suggestion of a 1001 Arabian Night's style king certainly works, as do any of the rumors we put in the blurb about him. My personal thoughts would be a fallen celestial, but that's only me.
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by NeoTiamat »

Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:Careful... follow that path too far, and pretty soon you'll be banning spammers, fixing broken links, resetting passwords, and uploading avatars.... the horror, the horror....
*three days later, the forum has crashed, all the netbooks are wiped, and my computer is on fire*

There's a reason I stick to the humanities.
Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:Personally, I would wait and build suspense, but that's probably the Tindal in me wanting to drive "business" for QtR.
I think that would be more plausible if they were actually coming out anytime soon, but in a year I think it more likely everyone will forget (they're good but not that good). So! Here's the links:
Falkovnia
Lamordia

(It's a wiki, but please don't edit).
Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:As I said in the QTR thread, these two domains were a huge highlight of the book for me. I'd thought Gazetteer I was so thorough that there wouldn't be any Barovia left to mine, but you managed to infuse it with enough real-world flavor to make it come alive in a new way.
I blush! :oops:
Gonzoron of the FoS wrote:And like IrvyneWolfe, my only disappointment with Pharazia was Diamabel himself, or the lack thereof. Since a domain should be infused with the essence of its darklord, I would love to see what about Diamabel's backstory would produce such a varied and exciting domain of tales and wonders. ( Perhaps a Ravenloft-ized version of Scheherazade's king? the deaths of 1000 wives would certainly qualify him.)

But I've always loved the idea of domains where the darklord is NOT the ruler, or even the obvious suspect.
That is actually not a bad idea at all. I'll throw out a few other ideas.
<> It's entirely possible that Diamabel isn't the Darklord. Rather, he's a manifestation of the real Darklord's curse. So he'd be a bit like the House on Gryphon Hill, or like Tatiana, an entity closely linked to Darklordship but not necessarily one himself. Or, as Isy says, a fallen celestial.
<> Pharazia, at least as I've written, has a distinct 'end of empire' vibe to it. One could do worse than spinning Haki Shinpi from Rokushima Taiyoo into a Pharazian Darklord, a kind of grand sultan who is forced to watch while everything he built is steadily destroyed, with Diamabel serving as the agent of destiny who does the actual destroying (the Darklord, in this case, is probably a ghost or ghul of some kind).
<> I absolutely adore the Sandman story Ramadan, which has
VIEW CONTENT:
Harun al-Rashid sell his fantastical Baghdad to the King of Dreams in exchange for the city living forever. The King of Dreams promptly makes the fantastical Baghdad vanish, replaced by a more grimy, down-to-earth Baghdad. But the fantastical Baghdad will live forever as a dream and a story.
Perhaps such a Darklord tried to make a deal with Diamabel (who may just be a high-level Outsider, or might be a manifestation of the Dark Powers like Strahd's Death), to make his land live forever, and now gets to see it turned into a memory of a golden age.
<> There's also no rule that says that Pharazia has to be one Domain. Maybe it's just a big cluster with a broadly shared culture and history, and Diamabel is more a kind of unifying element of a whole bunch of Domains.

But yeah. I think Diamabel is still waiting to be really well written. Who knows, I might give it a shot someday.
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by Gonzoron of the FoS »

Isabella wrote:Consider Diamabel a different article entirely. In other words, he hasn't really been written yet. ;) The reason you're dissatisfied with the write up is because it isn't one and wasn't really meant to be.
Understood. I suppose the expectation is there because darklords and domains usually get written up together. And especially when the domain is reinvented, it naturally makes one wonder about how the darklord was reinvented to get the domain that way.

Look at it this way, NeoT. The worst anyone can say so far about this article is that they want more of it. That's a pretty good place to be. :)
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by Isabella »

Honestly, the best way to approach it would probably be to write about five backstories and let whomever was running the game pick. Like I said, the problem was never too little ideas for Diamabel, it was having too many. And the idea of a guy with five backstories fits perfectly well with the new flavor of the domain (as opposed to Tristen Hieregaard ;) )

Who knows? Maybe he'll show up in the netbook next year as an article continuation.
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by Bluebomber4evr »

Re: the Pharazia article. It seems to be missing the point of the domain, and thus the attempts to "fix" it have actually taken it further from what it was intended to be.

It's a common misconception to lump all people of the Middle East as "Arabs" or "Arabian" due to the widespread use of the Arabic language as the official language of Islam, but there are a very wide variety of people and cultures in that part of the world. Pharazia really isn't supposed to be Arabic per se, but Persian. Specifically, it's based on the Persia of the Sassanid Period prior to the rise of Islam. The city of Phiraz seems to be very loosely based on the city of Shiraz, an ancient city in what is now modern-day Iran.

Diamabel is not and was never a "Muslim-themed darklord." I've said this elsewhere before, but Diamabel is basically a physical representation of the religion of Zoroastrianism: he looks like the sun god Ahura-Mazda by day, and by night he takes on the appearance of Ahriman, the god of darkness.

It's the desert nomads who rebel against Diamabel and call him a false god that are inspired by Arabs. Their conflict also matches the historical inspiration: the Arabs were one of several traditional enemies of the Sassanids (the other being the Byzantines) during that period.

There's some other problems: the aforementioned appearances of fantasy races like cloud giants, gnolls, and genies runs counter to Ravenloft's human-centric setting, and the addition of more city-states destroys the sense of isolation present in the original version of the domain (that's before we get into affixing it to the Core).
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by alhoon »

I would agree with BB4E. Pharazia seems more inspired by Zoroastrian Persia (but with intolerance added). Several people also said that it was inspired by the story "The History of Caliph Varthek" or something like that. Having read the story, I don't feel so, but anyway.

That doesn't mean your article isn't good BTW, it just means that it deviates from the original Pharazia which is fine.
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Re: [QTR21] Barovia & Pharazia

Post by NeoTiamat »

Bluebomber4evr wrote:Re: the Pharazia article. It seems to be missing the point of the domain, and thus the attempts to "fix" it have actually taken it further from what it was intended to be.
Hmm. I think we are dealing with somewhat different concepts of what Pharazia is. I'd spotted the Zoroastrian elements (subtle, they are not), but at the same time, pretty much every treatment of Pharazia that I've seen leans very heavily on crypto-Islam (possibly because there's an otherwise lack of Islamic-inspired localities in a setting that is otherwise heavy on making counterparts to real world cultures). I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think that Pharazia's ended up as the default Muslim domain in general perception.

Well, a reimagined domain, especially one that so heavily veers from the source material, is ultimately going to be a matter of taste. Perhaps in your case, simply take the Domain I have presented, change the name and make a Darklord, and treat it as a totally new Domain?
Bluebomber4evr wrote:There's some other problems: the aforementioned appearances of fantasy races like cloud giants, gnolls, and genies runs counter to Ravenloft's human-centric setting.
We may have to agree to disagree here. Ravenloft's always had elves, dwarves, gnomes, and so forth. Given that I was aiming for an Arabian Nights feel, a dash of the more fantastic seemed appropriate.

I would agree that such creatures should stick to Pharazia, but I don't see them as being too much of a departure from the setting. And if they are, easy enough to remove.
Bluebomber4evr wrote:, and the addition of more city-states destroys the sense of isolation present in the original version of the domain (that's before we get into affixing it to the Core).
See, the way I see it, more city states means more possible settings. Instead of pinning you down to one desert city, you now have a field in which they can be developed, and if necessary, destroyed. (One of the things I've been trying to do with these is to give more possible things to do in the Domain than "Confront the Darklord").

As for isolation... well. If we're talking physical isolation, there's still a great big desert out there, vast distances, hostile locals, and so forth. There is no cavalry to ride to the rescue, no easy escape. If we're talking cultural isolation, fair enough. I personally greatly enjoy cultures mixing, knowing of each other, interacting. I like the idea that the Sultan's private doctor is a Mulani. It makes the setting feel more alive to me. So that's a matter of taste.
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