Help with Altered Magic: Conjuration (Summoning)

[cure]

I am looking over the Altered Magic rules for Conjuration and in particular Conjuration (Summoning).

First, not only called creatures, but equally summoned creatures are granted a Will save to escape the caster's control and do as they wish?

Second, is the save made immediately or on their turn in the initiative order?

Third, what influences whether a creature decides to leave rather than stay? Can interaction with the caster, the party, or targeted enemies influence this?

Fourth, in domains with sparse ecology vermin and oozes can be summoned. Yet to the best of my knowledge there are no oozes on the Summon Monster list and the Summon Nature's Ally list.

Five, does summoning a night hag in Darkon yield Styrix or instead a generic night hag? If Styrix, is she wisked away at the end of the spell, does she remember the encounter, and what happens if she is in fact killed?

Thanx,

cure

[Zilfer]

Reminds me of a time when i was reading about a DM who had an ELF get summoned for a Fey I think and then they expected HIM to help fight, while they ran away using the creature carelessly as the party had done with all other summoned creatures....

Teach you to summon!

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

First, not only called creatures, but equally summoned creatures are granted a Will save to escape the caster's control and do as they wish?

That does indeed seem to be what the text implies, because the Will save text is under "Conjuration" in general, and not under the "Summoning" sub-heading. And in fact, if you look at the description of Monster Summoning I in Domains of Dread, it says explicitly that this was the case in 2e. So it seems likely to not be a mistake to have this carried over to 3e.

Second, is the save made immediately or on their turn in the initiative order?

Ordinarily, you make a save at the moment a spell is cast on you. But given the wording here, which says "in the round that the creature appears, the creature can attempt a Will save," I would lean towards initiative order. (as a free action.) Specifically, "in the round" and "attempt" make it seem like something the creature does of it's own choice, not a reflexive response to getting hit with the spell, which would be during it's own action.

Third, what influences whether a creature decides to leave rather than stay? Can interaction with the caster, the party, or targeted enemies influence this?

Sure, why not? Stick to summoning creatures that you expect might stay, and I'd give a bonus. (e.g., Fighting wererats? summon a lion. or a big snake.) Then have the ranger diplomacize them a bit before they get to decide, and maybe they won't bother with the save. Also keep in mind that most (non-dire) animals have poor will saves, and the CR's of the summoned monsters are much lower than the wizards who can summon them. That, with the -2 penalty should make it tough for them to make that save. Example: For summon monster V, the highest Will save on the list is +8. most are in the +3 range, especially when you limit it to what might reasonably be found in Ravenloft. A wizard with a modest 16 Int would make the DC 18. By the time the wizard can cast SMV, he's 9th level, and likely has a few more bonuses to that DC from feats, magic items, etc.

If the wizard chooses wisely, the chances of a backfire are slim.

Fourth, in domains with sparse ecology vermin and oozes can be summoned. Yet to the best of my knowledge there are no oozes on the Summon Monster list and the Summon Nature's Ally list.

I'm not going to check the lists. I'll assume you're right. But when a wizard finds himself in that situation, I'd go ahead and allow some appropriate CR oozes.

Five, does summoning a night hag in Darkon yield Styrix or instead a generic night hag?

DM prerogative, I'd say. Who's to say there isn't another one out there? Now, don't go summoning a giant crocodile in the wildlands, though...

If Styrix, is she wisked away at the end of the spell, does she remember the encounter, and what happens if she is in fact killed?

SRD: " A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again."

the rules are iffy on whether the creature remembers or not. I see some online arguing that the word "manifestation" in the description of summoning means it's a copy of the real creature, but that seems to disagree the idea of taking 24 hours to reform, and it's not at all clear that that's what it means.

I'd go with "yes" only because that's where the best hooks lie, IMHO.

[Ryan Naylor]

I am looking over the Altered Magic rules for Conjuration and in particular Conjuration (Summoning).

First, not only called creatures, but equally summoned creatures are granted a Will save to escape the caster's control and do as they wish?

Technically yes. However, because summoning is already made difficult in RL, I have always ignored this rule for the purposes of fun.

There is no fun in spending a full round action to summon an animal, only to have it run away as soon as it appears. However, Ron's explanation also seems right to me.

Second, is the save made immediately or on their turn in the initiative order?

On their turn, so immediately before the summoner gets to act.

Third, what influences whether a creature decides to leave rather than stay? Can interaction with the caster, the party, or targeted enemies influence this?

Yes.

Fourth, in domains with sparse ecology vermin and oozes can be summoned. Yet to the best of my knowledge there are no oozes on the Summon Monster list and the Summon Nature's Ally list.

Change it.

Five, does summoning a night hag in Darkon yield Styrix or instead a generic night hag? If Styrix, is she wisked away at the end of the spell, does she remember the encounter, and what happens if she is in fact killed?

It should yield Styrix (assuming there are no other night hags in Darkon). I would imagine she remembers the encounter (probably vengefully). If killed, her corpse is returned to where it was originally, her spirit retreats into its phylactery, and some days later, she possesses someone nearby and returns to the physical world.

That possibly explains why it's taken her so long to get the Riftspanner working - she keeps getting interrupted at key moments, ruining her preparations.

[Ryan Naylor]

SRD: " A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or if its hit points drop to 0 or lower. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can’t be summoned again."

the rules are iffy on whether the creature remembers or not. I see some online arguing that the word "manifestation" in the description of summoning means it's a copy of the real creature, but that seems to disagree the idea of taking 24 hours to reform, and it's not at all clear that that's what it means.

I'd go with "yes" only because that's where the best hooks lie, IMHO.

The reforming thing is only because you're summoning outsiders, and this is what happens when outsiders die on foreign planes.

If you summon an animal in RL and it dies, it should just stay dead.

[alhoon]

Reminds me of a time when i was reading about a DM who had an ELF get summoned for a Fey I think and then they expected HIM to help fight, while they ran away using the creature carelessly as the party had done with all other summoned creatures....

Teach you to summon!

I did that, but with an aasimar.

Five, does summoning a night hag in Darkon yield Styrix or instead a generic night hag? If Styrix, is she wisked away at the end of the spell, does she remember the encounter, and what happens if she is in fact killed?

It should yield Styrix (assuming there are no other night hags in Darkon). I would imagine she remembers the encounter (probably vengefully). If killed, her corpse is returned to where it was originally, her spirit retreats into its phylactery, and some days later, she possesses someone nearby and returns to the physical world.

That possibly explains why it's taken her so long to get the Riftspanner working - she keeps getting interrupted at key moments, ruining her preparations.

I would have Styrix come and whether she survives or not, she won't take it kindly.
However, I didn't get the feeling it took her so long to get the riftspanner working. Not at all...
I think Styrix didn't get the 100 HD in it yet because... she's just finished the riftspanner a "few months ago". With few months ago being "time of the campaign minus 3 to 6 months".

[Ryan Naylor]

From a meta point of view, it's been "a few months" since 735 BC.

But you're right from an internal point of view, of course.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

The reforming thing is only because you're summoning outsiders, and this is what happens when outsiders die on foreign planes.

If you summon an animal in RL and it dies, it should just stay dead.

I see the logic there, but as I read the RAW, that's not the case. For example, Summon Nature's Ally doesn't summon outsiders,** even in normal setting worlds. It just summons natural animals. (see also, Mount) But it is still a Conjuration (Summoning) spell and the description of the Summoning sub-school includes the text I quoted about not really being dead. There's no indication in the SRD that this applies only to extraplanar creatures.

**Technically, not everything on the Summon Monster list is an outsider either. The fiendish/celestial templates don't change creature type (except to change animals and vermin into magical beasts), so a lot of them are magical beasts (or elementals). They are all extraplanar, though.

ETA: And yeah, I did the "PC gets summoned" thing with my feytouched True Innocent.

[Ryan Naylor]

When I said outsider, I actually meant extraplanar. Slip of the brain.


However, you are right and I was wrong. Both D&D and Pathfinder have the thing about reforming 24 hours later, and it applies to the templated animals of summon monster, and the normal animals of summon nature's ally.

I still think it's a stupid rule though, and I'm going to ignore it.



Incidentally, in Pathfinder, the templates don't change animals into magical beasts - they stay as animals.

[Zilfer]

The reforming thing is only because you're summoning outsiders, and this is what happens when outsiders die on foreign planes.

If you summon an animal in RL and it dies, it should just stay dead.

I see the logic there, but as I read the RAW, that's not the case. For example, Summon Nature's Ally doesn't summon outsiders,** even in normal setting worlds. It just summons natural animals. (see also, Mount) But it is still a Conjuration (Summoning) spell and the description of the Summoning sub-school includes the text I quoted about not really being dead. There's no indication in the SRD that this applies only to extraplanar creatures.

**Technically, not everything on the Summon Monster list is an outsider either. The fiendish/celestial templates don't change creature type (except to change animals and vermin into magical beasts), so a lot of them are magical beasts (or elementals). They are all extraplanar, though.

ETA: And yeah, I did the "PC gets summoned" thing with my feytouched True Innocent.

Haha! that's where it was from


Only a mad genius would do that! xD

[cure]

From the FSC: "Summoned creatures in Ravenloft do not use the outsider template." (p. 92)

Should this in fact read the "extraplanar template"?

Either way, what are implications?

[Ryan Naylor]

As it says in the next sentence, you summon normal animals, not animals with the celestial or fiendish templates.

[cure]

So the summoned animals are not magic animals, just animals, and accordingly are subject to magic that targets the latter but not the former?

Equally, summon animals are not subject to a dismissal spell and the like?

Finally, when used to summon animals, the spell does not gain an alignment descriptor?

And returning to an earlier point, the negotiations to keep a summoned creature which is free to simply leave (or otherwise do as it wishes) from in fact doing so would occur as a free action when it appears which would be just before the caster is to act in the following round?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

there's no outsider template. There's also no extraplanar template. That sentence is clearly shorthand for "the celestial or fiendish templates." It's a bit of a misnomer, but no biggie.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

So the summoned animals are not magic animals, just animals, and accordingly are subject to magic that targets the latter but not the former?

substitute magical beast for magic animals in that sentence and then, yes, that's correct. (because "magic animal" isn't a thing. the templates that go on summoned animals in standard settings make them magical beasts with the extraplanar subtype, under 3.5 rules. )

Equally, summon animals are not subject to a dismissal spell and the like?

Right, they wouldn't be extraplanar, so the dismissal spell wouldn't do anything to them.

Finally, when used to summon animals, the spell does not gain an alignment descriptor?

right. though even in standard settings, the fiendish/celestial templates don't grant the evil/good subtypes, so summoning the extraplanar templated magical beast versions of those animals wouldn't add the alignment descriptor to the spell anyway. You'd have to summon something that already comes with the subtype built in (like a devil or something) to get the descriptor added to the spell.

And returning to an earlier point, the negotiations to keep a summoned creature which is free to simply leave (or otherwise do as it wishes) from in fact doing so would occur as a free action when it appears which would be just before the caster is to act in the following round?

I think we agree the creature can leave on it's own action. The summoner would have to use a free action to open negotiations at the end of the action when he cast the spell (after the spell completes and the creature arrives). The creature would then be free to respond on its action and then decide whether to leave or not. Lenient DM's might allow some back and forth as free actions in there, even though by the RAW, you can't even speak when it's not your action.