Is Ravenloft really that bad a place to live?

[brilliantlight]

I think that it is not true that there aren't worse places to live in D&D then Ravenloft. Dark Sun is worse, Arayth is worse. Is there others that you can think of. I think there quite a few realms that would be better places to live than many Real Life 3rd World countries such as North Korea or Hait. I am thinking of Mordent, Lamordia, Dementilieu and Richemulot. For most people in those domains life is better than the worst 3rd World countries.

[scienceBorg]

I agree with you, I think there are some domains that are pretty bad though. I don't have all the Ravenloft stuff, but my feeling was more the general dread and vulnerability.

Maybe its varying kinds of bad? Living in a dictatorship where gestapo come knocking is a different kind of difficulty than living in a desert with psionic beats is the way I look at it.

ETA: Not sure if I ever heard of Arayth BTW. Any info would be much appreciated!

[brilliantlight]

I agree with you, I think there are some domains that are pretty bad though. I don't have all the Ravenloft stuff, but my feeling was more the general dread and vulnerability.

Maybe its varying kinds of bad? Living in a dictatorship where gestapo come knocking is a different kind of difficulty than living in a desert with psionic beats is the way I look at it.

ETA: Not sure if I ever heard of Arayth BTW. Any info would be much appreciated!

Midnight Campaign World, don't know much about it except evil won and you are a rebel against it. Sounds real nasty. This isn't even bringing in worse fictional places than are found in any AD&D world I know of such as Oceania, Alpha Complex, and WH40K.

[HuManBing]

I agree with you, I think there are some domains that are pretty bad though. I don't have all the Ravenloft stuff, but my feeling was more the general dread and vulnerability.

Maybe its varying kinds of bad? Living in a dictatorship where gestapo come knocking is a different kind of difficulty than living in a desert with psionic beats is the way I look at it.

I think this hits the nail on the head. Look at the Gothic Horror roots, and you'll see societies that are fully liveable and even charming. Early-industrial England, rustic Italy, the grand Alps and the universities of Germany... To quote the original Black Box Ravenloft book, you get luxuriant sunsets, inviting orchards, and picturesque landscapes in Gothic fiction. Horror isn't necessarily about where you are, so much as how you feel.

The horror comes about as a series of cracks in the facade. Look at the teen slasher movies like Freddy Kruger and Jason Voorhees - they're still based on the assumption of a peaceful suburban lifestyle, and the true fear and horror comes as that slowly dissolves before the maniac's excesses. Even taking a page out of modern events, Iraq and Libya (and Russia under Stalin) were lands of significant natural resources and many opportunities to find comfort and tranquility and beauty... it was the depredations of the people who ran it that made it such a terrifying place to live.


Ravenloft's roots really aren't well represented by the high-fantasy roots of DnD, and I think it's a disservice to compare them directly. Raw power is usually only one aspect of any given darklord's reputation (and some darklords do just fine without it - vide d'Honaire, Boritsi, and Mordenheim). People fear Strahd not because he can turn invading armies into ash, but because in the middle of the night they know he's out there but you have no idea where. People fear Drakov not because he's some superpowered brawler, but because of his everyday attitude towards unspeakable cruelty. People fear Azalin because his informants are everywhere and nowhere at once and your secrets must be tightly kept, not because he can roil the world in flames.

Like Satan in Paradise Lost, hatred and fear and horror and misery are as much a state of mind that the sufferer carries with them, as they are a product of the surroundings. Sometimes you know a soul is truly damned if they're surrounded by beauty and riches, yet they still carry "a hell within them" that makes them ugly and desperate.

[alhoon]

Well, 3rd world countries are quite bad to begin with. Let's just say that many Ravenloft domains are actually better to live in than Medieval Europe, or comparable to it.

Sure, a vampire may kill you or a werewolf may turn you against your loved ones. But there's no black plague. No crusades. Few wars. I doupt if life expectancy or quality of life in say, Barovia is far less than Romania in 11th century. And I think Borca with their poison is better to live than 14th century, disease plagued Italy (yes, plagued by the Black Plague). Aristocrats that were obnoxious, petty personalities were present in Italy too, but for the common man in Borca, not worrying about Nobles, war with the Pope/HRE, black plague and evil nobles is quite an improvement.

[herkles]

humanBeings view on ravenloft sums up my view as well. I believe that the more normal it actually is, then when the horror elements are shown it has far more of an impact IMO.

[brilliantlight]

humanBeings view on ravenloft sums up my view as well. I believe that the more normal it actually is, then when the horror elements are shown it has far more of an impact IMO.

Agreed, and I think it is cruicial to have a large number of decent people in the domain the PCs are in. It should be shown to them that a considerable majority of people are decent folk who certainly have their moral failings but are no worse than everywhere else. If only a handful of people aren't monsters of some sort (literal or figurative) it is hard to care about what happens. The town gets overrun by werewolves? Who cares? They were all SOBs anyways. This is the kind of thing you want to avoid.

[ewancummins]

Wars seem to be less common than in the real world, so that's a big plus. Of course, there are some domains that are especially harsh, brutal, or oppressive. G'henna is a nasty place.

I'd argue that, compared to several major published TSR/WotC settings, the Demiplane is a relatively decent place to live.

Oerth: Iuz and the Scarlet Brotherhood, orcs all over the shop, and so much demand for professional killers that several cities actually support assassins' guilds? Geeze!

Toril: Swap out a few specifics, and it's like WoG with the added joys of gods duking it out on the streets,entire flights of dragons despoiling the land, and the occasional Mongol invasion.

Krynn: The gods are jerks who've royally trashed the world a couple of times , abandoned their worshippers, and unleashed all kinds of craziness. Oh, and dragons just ate all your cows.

Aebrynis: Endless wars and dynastic struggles. You can be conscripted as grunt labor or arrow fodder for some ambitious lordling's campaigns. What fun! Did I mention the evil awnsheghlien, some of whom rule kingdoms of their own?


Dark Sun: I don't think this one needs elaboration.

[ewancummins]

I do use plagues, pestilence, and famine, IMC.

[ScS of the Fraternity]

Consider, for a moment, random encounters. In most worlds you can't even go more than a few blocks before incurring a significant chance of ruthless cut-throats, ravenous beasts, or hideous monsters. Ever wonder why those monsters always have a few D6 gold coins in their lair? That gold was what they're last meal had in their wallet. In Greyhawk the annual attrition rate on caravans runs into the triple digits.
Ravenloft, on the other hand, was often described as having "No random encounters, only deadly ones." Sounds like a raw deal, at first, until you consider that for a zero level nobody any encounter is deadly. As well, the most dangerous creature stalking abroad is likely to be the domain lord or a servant thereof. So getting eaten by a wandering monster is a form of random taxation.
All in all, not too bad of a deal.

[alhoon]

I do use plagues, pestilence, and famine, IMC.

Yes, but they're usually domain wide, not Core-wide. Also, I don't remember any plague that killed 60% of the population of the Core in 4-5 years like the black plague. The isolationist nature of the domains and settlements make spreading of diseases more difficult. If it comes to that, the domain lords near a plague-ridden domain can just close their borders and use magical means to snuff out plague-bearers in their domains or just mundanely kill everyone that looks sick.
The Crimson death in Darkon wasn't that bad after all.

Consider, for a moment, random encounters. In most worlds you can't even go more than a few blocks before incurring a significant chance of ruthless cut-throats, ravenous beasts, or hideous monsters.

Well, depends on the world and the DM. I use random encounters in Ravenloft as often as in other places. You can't just cross the Mountains of Misery, spending 3 weeks on them and not expect to stumble on a few things. Nor is realistic for a group of 3-4 men to cross from Barovia to Darkon on foot 5-6 times and never encounter any brigands in their months on the road.

But yes, compared to another world I use where the King has offended Moradin and Glittergold so Earth elementals are spawned and patrol the countryside and randomly attack humans, Ravenloft is tame for the common man

[Ryan Naylor]

I more or less agree: most of RL would be reasonable ("no worse than most other places") for a peasant to live in. I think in most cases, if you keep your head down and your doors barred at night, you could live pretty normally. It's only adventurers who go around picking at the frayed edges that get to see the full horror.

There was a quote in one of the books that summed this up: "There are two ways to escape suffering... The first is easy for many: accept the inferno and become such a part of it that you can no longer see it." That's what most people in RL do.

[ewancummins]

I do use plagues, pestilence, and famine, IMC.

Yes, but they're usually domain wide, not Core-wide. Also, I don't remember any plague that killed 60% of the population of the Core in 4-5 years like the black plague. The isolationist nature of the domains and settlements make spreading of diseases more difficult. If it comes to that, the domain lords near a plague-ridden domain can just close their borders and use magical means to snuff out plague-bearers in their domains or just mundanely kill everyone that looks sick.
The Crimson death in Darkon wasn't that bad after all.

I haven't used anything really big...Yet.

[Guardian of Twilight]

I always felt that Greyhawk was the worst world to live in as far as D&D is concerned. No, make that Krynn. Fickle gods that can't keep anything straight trumps chronomancy. How hard is it to notice when Takhisis is off taking the world? Honestly? Faerun has some high points, like Evermeet, Waterdeep, Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter. However, a character like Elminster can ruin the setting quickly. I just don't care for how every female in the Realms is attracted to him, trying to "get with him". I'm sure all of you that have read any on him know what I mean.

I actually feel that Ravenloft has the most interesting stories, people, lands and cultures over any other D&D setting. My favorite domain is Mordent, of course. I'd live there happily.

Also, I'd like to add how friendly these boards are as compared to Candlekeep. Over there if you say one opinion different than others, they attack you over and over again. Thank you all for always keeping it friendly here for any idea or view.

[ewancummins]

Also, I'd like to add how friendly these boards are as compared to Candlekeep. Over there if you say one opinion different than others, they attack you over and over again. Thank you all for always keeping it friendly here for any idea or view.

IME, there just aren't many 'hardcore canon purists' in Ravenloft fandom. Indeed, how could there be, when the official published material is rather sketchily drawn, and fairly often inconsistent? The fans have done tubs of development on their own.