Running Ravenloft with Non-D20 Rule Sets

[Lord Cyclohexane]

I realize this might not be the best question to ask right now, considering all the conversations on 4E going about (in my defense, this is the first I'd heard about it; my nine month hiatus from things Ravenloft included a hiatus from any D20 settings... it's been Shadowrun, Savage Worlds and All Flesh Must Be Eaten for me, with my group going into Earthdawn now so I've yet another setting/rules system to learn...) but:

What experiences have people had with running Ravenloft under a non-D20 rules system? I believe it was Dion of the Fraternity who'd talked a bit about running Ravenloft using the World of Darkness system, following a conversation about how new players tend to be hesitant about trying Ravenloft when done normally but that some people found this hesitancy completely sidestepped if Ravenloft was run using a different rules system.

Personally, I've thought Savage Worlds's "Rippers" setting would be a good alternate rules set for Ravenloft, requiring little overall change. Obviously I'd want to deny PCs the ability to actually use the Rippertech, but the overall rules seem workable. Savage Worlds's other great benefit is the ease of character creation, thus allowing more time for creating character personalities and backstories (though I don't actually believe for a minute that the players would use it; it just frees up my own time for more story and less rules).

Similarly, All Flesh Must Be Eaten sounds like it would be a good basis, due to its strong system for monster creation/differentiation so that, as noted in the Van Richten's Guides, there wouldn't be such a thing as a typical vampire, typical werewolf, or typical zombie. I haven't delved deeply enough into AFMBE yet (my girlfriend will be running a game in AFMBE before long, so I'd better get to it), but the monster creation rules appear to have been inspired by the VRG ideas, or so my biases tell me.

But of course, I am also tempted to run Ravenloft using the 3.0/3.5 rules, as they've already been so well done and so everything is already complete. However, the group I roleplay with does have issues with D20 as a whole, the main complaint being the focus on combat, centered on the idea that since there's a completely seperate track of combat skills ala Base Attack Bonuses etc vs the track of other skills ala Appraise, Spot, Listen, etc, this inspires a greater focus on combat than a game like Shadowrun or World of Darkness where combat skills are just like other skills. In WoD, for example, you could have the equivalent of a 20th level character with no combat skills whatsoever. In D20, no matter how dedicated your priest is to pacifism, he'll still have a BAB of +15 at level 20. As such, they're less interested in D20 due to its perceived bias towards combat as the solution to all problems, and I'm tempted to avoid D20 just to make things easier for the group as a whole.

Anyway, for the people who have run Ravenloft using a non-D20 rules system, what were your experiences? Did it end up working well or did you feel you were spending most of your time doing rules-conversion and little on story-writing? Did a certain system seem to railroad you into certain types of stories (e.g. A Game of Thrones RPG sounds good if you're looking for a politics-heavy game like for Richemulot or Dementlieu, but seems positively horrid for any monster-hunters campaigns), whether aiding in enforcing a particular mood or detracting as it limited your freedom to change focus from story to story?

Whatever you can help out with, both in positive points to help me know what additional rules sets to check out (e.g. Reign seems very promising for a mercenary campaign or a War of the Western Core campaign, though I only the slightest knowledge about it) and also in negative points so I can narrow down which systems to look into, I'd be appreciative of any information people can give.

Thanks in advance!

[Dion of the Fraternity]

Hi! Yep, I played RL usong nWoD system rules, and the fact that all the characters had little or no abilities to rely on (I used the basic nWoD rules, not the speicific "monsters" rules such as Vampire or Promethean) made it more interesting.

Of course a little tweaking had to be done, especially with the "Computers" and "Drive" abilities. I had to adopt from the old Dark Ages rules to truly give RL SS a dark feel.

[maraudar]

I have used RL with the BRP system that Cthulhu uses fairly often. It seems to work for me. Its not that hard to convert either. Primarily though I use a hybrid 1e/2e rule set.


SW Rippers is another good system to use. I love that game ..

I play AFMBE and the unisystem is decent . You can develope some really interesting creatures using it but I think you may run into them becoming to powerful for your PC's to handle at some point.

You might want to check into Witch Hunter from Paradigm Concepts. I am currently running a campaign with that game but also still learning the system as I go along.

Interesting Dion, I never thought of using the nWoD system. Was it hard to make the conversion?


This has to be the longest post I have made in god knows how long...


Maraudar

[Jakob]

Hi. I'm using a d20-True20 mesh without any problem, but reading your biases about the BAB, it's not what you're looking for.
...
Though I don't understand the problem with the pacifist priest... Just because you have an high BAB, that doesn't mean you HAVE to use it.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

Hi! Yep, I played RL usong nWoD system rules, and the fact that all the characters had little or no abilities to rely on (I used the basic nWoD rules, not the speicific "monsters" rules such as Vampire or Promethean) made it more interesting.

Sounds cool, as the nWoD rules would definitely make the normal human PCs much weaker than the vampire/werewolf/promethean opponents, as those are all templates (for want of a better word) over the base human.

One thing that I'm curious about, though: since Mage is also a "template", thus making the magic-wielding characters much more powerful than the non-magic characters, how did you balance that out with your wizards and clerics? Did you create a pre-TomeOfBattle-like system, allowing your "fighters" and "rogues" to purchase pseudo-Disciplines to mimic things like Potence or Celerity to represent tapping one's strength, agility, etc? How *did* you balance that, actually?

Of course a little tweaking had to be done, especially with the "Computers" and "Drive" abilities. I had to adopt from the old Dark Ages rules to truly give RL SS a dark feel.

Plus, IIRC, there are a few skills missing from modern WoD that Dark Ages had that'd really fit, like Alchemy, Archery, Riding (to replace Drive), etc. Due to just ending (well, pausing) a six-month Shadowrun campaign that my friend ran, I'm half-tempted to take Shadowrun rules, rip out skills like Computers, Data Search, etc and replace them with Dark Ages skills that seem appropriate, now that you've given me the seed idea.

Oh, but one thing I'm curious about: Using the nWoD rules, how did you do the Fear/Horror/Madness checks? Fear is already built in, so only Horror and Madness would need to be added, but I'm also curious how you did the "ramp up" effect, where a horrible failure on the Fear chart then makes you roll on the Horror chart. Considering the similarities between Shadowrun and WoD/nWoD (little difference outside of using d6s instead of d10s), I'm quite curious.

[Isabella]

One thing that I'm curious about, though: since Mage is also a "template", thus making the magic-wielding characters much more powerful than the non-magic characters, how did you balance that out with your wizards and clerics? Did you create a pre-TomeOfBattle-like system, allowing your "fighters" and "rogues" to purchase pseudo-Disciplines to mimic things like Potence or Celerity to represent tapping one's strength, agility, etc? How *did* you balance that, actually?

I don't know how Dion handled it but I do recall that OWoD had rules for magical adepts - basically the awful hedge-wizard version of "true" magic. But I don't know if NWoD has that.

One of the nice things I remember about OWoD was that a sword or gun was about as good as magic at low levels.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

I have used RL with the BRP system that Cthulhu uses fairly often. It seems to work for me. Its not that hard to convert either. Primarily though I use a hybrid 1e/2e rule set.

I'd considered CoC as a rules set, but as I'm not familiar with it at all (I've never even *seen* one of the books, much less leafed through one), I put that on the back burner a bit. I don't even know what skill system they use...

But as you've opened it up: how are the overall monsters for CoC? If things are primarily just based around Cthulhuian horrors, then I feel I'd spend too much time creating additional monsters (for the typical vampires, werewolves, etc) and, with having to learn the rules from scratch, that might be more time than I'm willing to invest at the moment. If shoggoth are relatively easy to adapt to the other forms, however, I could be interested. I'm planning on playing a campaign that doesn't deal with Bluetspur and only tangentially deals with the Nightmare Lands, so if shoggoth are poorly adapted, it would be a difficulty.

SW Rippers is another good system to use. I love that game ..

Sweet! That's the one I've been leaning towards, as I happen to like Savage Worlds as a whole. The fact that the Rippers book happens to have a crapload of monsters of all of our main varieties (vampires, ancient dead, ghosts, demons, werecreatures including cannibals who take on werefeatures; only missing liches) seems to make a lot of the world already finished.

Plus, for overall play-wise, I really do prefer SW's magic system for its overall speed and ease-of-use. I'd have a problem properly rendering Strahd and Azalin due to the limited magic system, but not greatly.

I'm tempted to be a huge dork, though, and sit down and compare/contrast probability tables to compare/contrast the difficulty of successfully hitting a DC 15 check if you have a +0 modifier to your roll (duh, 25% chance success) vs making a moderate success (rolling between 4 and 8 ) when rolling 2d6 (base attribute plus luck dice, reroll sixes and add on), etc.

I play AFMBE and the unisystem is decent . You can develope some really interesting creatures using it but I think you may run into them becoming to powerful for your PC's to handle at some point.

That's not a problem, as the point is to force the PCs to look into the monster's history and find allergens, retirement rituals, etc and thus learn the whole story of the monster. So if the monster is overly powerful, that'll force the PCs to not go head-to-head (or it'll have them die, either way).

You might want to check into Witch Hunter from Paradigm Concepts. I am currently running a campaign with that game but also still learning the system as I go along.

Now I regret being sick last Sunday even more than before, as one of my friends ran a one-shot in Witch Hunter. My girlfriend reported that it's pretty interesting as a whole, but that it was mean to archers.

[Lord Cyclohexane]

Hi. I'm using a d20-True20 mesh without any problem, but reading your biases about the BAB, it's not what you're looking for.

I've never heard of this d20-True20 mesh before. Can you tell me more about it and/or give a link to somewhere?

Though, honestly, if I was going to use a d20 system, it'd be Mutants and Masterminds, hands down. It's like 3.5 D&D but with you being able to fully pick-and-choose your ability sets. Instead of being bound by classes, you instead just get an ability each level/two levels which you can use for a feat, a special ability like barbarian's rage, etc. You can choose what to buy and when to do a really sweet mix-and-match. Which, honestly, makes it easier to create a character skills-wise that matches your concept of the character personality-wise.

...
Though I don't understand the problem with the pacifist priest... Just because you have an high BAB, that doesn't mean you HAVE to use it.

I think it's more along the lines of wanting greater control over one's own character's development. If the BAB bonus could be dropped and pumped into skill points, for example, you could have a priest so smooth-talking that he can convince people not to fight to begin with.

Not to mention, it's a touch silly when you consider that Rev. John Q Public hasn't ever wielded a weapon *ever* and yet *still* has a BAB that's better than the wizard, who relies on his crossbow every single adventure when his spells run out. How does that make sense, to never once use a skill and yet have it improve anyway?

But in the end, that's just a guess. Shadowrun, which has combat as "just another skill", still degenerated into combat almost all the time. I managed to minimize it through proper information research (hack the cameras and you can avoid the guards) and my girlfriend was able to talk our opponents out of a number of fights, but still, combat was a huge part of the game. So, unfortunately, I can't explain it. All I know is that my group doesn't much care for it, so I'm going to avoid it if I can.

[artemis wands]

I'd considered CoC as a rules set, but as I'm not familiar with it at all (I've never even *seen* one of the books, much less leafed through one), I put that on the back burner a bit. I don't even know what skill system they use...

CoC (the non-d20 version) uses a basic percentile system for skills, including combat skills. Its character stats are all fairly similar to D&D, but its HP calculation isn't done with die rolls, and HPs don't increase with experience, generally speaking. A PC is going to have pretty much the same HP for the span of his career.

CoC has also statted-out the typical horror monsters, including vampires, lycanthropes, zombies, mummies, ghosts, and so on. Its magic system isn't level- or class-based (indeed, there are no classes at all), so anyone can learn magic. In standard CoC, learning any kind of magic can drive you mad, but the GM could loosen that rule to fit more with RL's parameters.

Anything from D&D can be easily converted to CoC.

[alhoon]

I don't know how Dion handled it but I do recall that OWoD had rules for magical adepts - basically the awful hedge-wizard version of "true" magic. But I don't know if NWoD has that.

One of the nice things I remember about OWoD was that a sword or gun was about as good as magic at low levels.

In nWoD there are character options like hedge magicians again, and psychics. And a gun or a sword is as good as magic at high levels. Magic is far better at improving weapons than dealing damage on its own.

While the WoD ruleset may be good for Ravenloft, the mage rules are completely out of concept IMO. Mages don't have to research or find spells etc. They change reality with their will alone. If the learn a few rotes in the way, it helps giving them a bit of advantage but magic's true potentional is that in the preview of your chosen areas as dictated by your path, you can do anything you imagine up to your power level.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

One thing that I'm curious about, though: since Mage is also a "template", thus making the magic-wielding characters much more powerful than the non-magic characters, how did you balance that out with your wizards and clerics?

White Wolf came out last year with "Second Sight," a nWoD accessory for characters with psychic abilities and/or low magic abilities. It works pretty good, actually.

Oh, but one thing I'm curious about: Using the nWoD rules, how did you do the Fear/Horror/Madness checks?

I substituted the Madness rules for the Morality rules, although I still have to buy the new nWod "Asylum" accessory which provides more rules on Madness. Fear/Horror is more of a Wits+Composure roll. As for the "ramp up," I use the Dramatic Failure rules already built in: dramatically fail a Wits+Composure roll, suffer dire mental/emotional consequences.

[Sylaire]

CoC has also statted-out the typical horror monsters, including vampires, lycanthropes, zombies, mummies, ghosts, and so on. Its magic system isn't level- or class-based (indeed, there are no classes at all), so anyone can learn magic. In standard CoC, learning any kind of magic can drive you mad, but the GM could loosen that rule to fit more with RL's parameters.

Anything from D&D can be easily converted to CoC.

MotRD is an even more obvious fit with CoC; the Sanity issues with learning spells (and, indeed, with casting most spells) plays out very nicely with Masque's "magic is tainted by the Red Death" theme. Actually, I'd recommend the CoC supplements Cthulhu by Gaslight, Dark Designs, and Sacraments of Evil for any MotRD DM; several of the adventures are first-rate and the Victorian-era information of the first supplement can be valuable background detail for anyone setting a campaign in England.

[artemis wands]

There's also a Dark Ages Cthulhu setting that would be highly useful for Ravenloft's lesser-advanced domains.

[Jakob]

My mesh is simple: Thoughness saves, some skills and feats and d20 classes and spells. It works.
If you need flexibility on classes, True20 is what you're looking for.
http://true20.com/about.php

[alhoon]

White Wolf came out last year with "Second Sight," a nWoD accessory for characters with psychic abilities and/or low magic abilities. It works pretty good, actually.

I'm a big fun of Second Sight. If you beef up a bit some antagonist Second Sighters, like giving them home-brew merits that allow them to cast a couple of spells without actually spending the WP etc and even allowing the PCs to access them at some point it makes a good magic system.
Couple that with a few spirit pacts that allow invoking SN powers in a couple of turns (made them yourself, but they are easy to think them using the last part of the SS book) and you have players with not awesome powers but a good supplement to your characters and some scary powers for your average evil wizard.

Fear/Horror is more of a Wits+Composure roll.

Wits+Composure? Well that seems more than a bit odd Dion. With all due respect, Wits+Composure is the default perception roll. Resolve+Composure in most cases or just composure in some others is the default "will save" of the nWoD. Composure is the save against emotional attacks like fear, while resolve usually plays a part.

Still aside of our disagreement on that, penalties for the severity of the fear etc is a good trick.