To Retcon or Not Retcon: That is the Question

[Ail]

My turn now.
I too am against reverting to the simple basics, but I understand where that feeling might have come from. I too am a nostalgic about many things, many times, but I began with RL too late to feel that here. Specifically, I began with the third BoS and with Domains of Dread, when the 2nd Ed line was about to end or just had.

Anyway, I have read earlier this year a book on vampires written on the early 1920s, I guess, and in it the author makes a survey of the vampire tales up to that time. This included books and most prominently theatrical plays. And one interesting point that he put accross, and which I find has merit, was that a horror story can not be long. Otherwise, horror themes don't make for good long stories, or series or whatever because the horror is based mostly on the strange and the unknown. Once it becomes too familiar, it's no longer horror. I'm sure many of us have read and defended similar points of view in these boards.

Now, that seems to be the problem with our setting nowadays. Everything is so carefully explained and set for so long campaigns that after a while, any DM will raise his arms and abandon his paladinic goal of creating horror and fear in his players (note that I said players and not PCs). Because the players will soon be used enough to the dark tones, they will be familiar with the mists and all that. For instance that my group of players laughs for most of any session, even though scary things are happening to their PCs and they never cared for setup environments with dim red lights or sinister music. That's just not their game. I run a low-fantasy campaign with some dark spots, but it's not really that horrorful. I guess Alhoon too said once he runs a dark-fantasy campaign and not exactly horror, and that's the whole point: I guess it's not that easy anymore to make a horror campaign. After all, if the players are natives AND heroes, they soon become familiar with the dark secrets and it takes really good RPers (or even actors) to overcome that familiarity and represent the fear in their playing. Occasionally they may feel sad about the loss of their characters, or some impediment cast upon them, but no one likes to suffer, least of all at a gaming table, and so no one will willingly cast herself in a depressive mood just to better enjoy the game.

That said, it seems it would be easier to pull that out with the earlier setting, where every new adventure was really different, where it focused on new thus far unknown dangers and where the monsters were different than those in the books players knew. They knew they were going to be scared by the surprises in the DM's sleeve.... and be killed.

And this is the whole problem with the WiH approach: your characters don't last, it's basically a masochist experience. I for one detest when a my PC dies, I like to see them growing with time and experience, to see them last time and overcome tests and actually become heroes of legend... not just tragic heroes who tried, were lauded for that, but failed like anyone else.

That was, I guess, why we eventually moved to a campaign setting, a trua campaign setting, like RL is now. And a campaign setting is a backdrop where you can stage your campaigns, which by definition are long stretches of adventures with connected heroes, not just a mish-mash of loose adventures with different PCs every time. A campaign has much more potential of pleasing players than a series of one-offs, I believe. And for that, you need the structured kind of setting you have now.

Why would you ever need a setting for a WiH? Why even the Black Box? Perhaps just to give a good set of rules appropriate for a certain kind of adventures once and in fixed format and thus save space in published adventures. But that's not a setting, that's an accessory, and the proof must be, although I have not read it, Heroes of Horror. I bet, and I could of course be wrong, that it is pretty much "how to run a horror adventure in any setting you choose", be it Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, Eberron or any other. You don't need a full-fledged setting for that. And if you have one, you're probably underusing it. After all, if you want to kill the DL in the end, and if that DL happens to be Strahd, what use is the whole setting after that?

For the above reasons, I prefer the setting as is, whole, complex, with lots of possibilities. But I too feel the nostalgy, now and then, of innocence. Because that's it we crave once we are veterans: the first sensations we felt when everything was new, when secrets were still wonderful. But innocence, alas, once lost can not be recovered. And what can we do about it? Well, a few things, perhaps:
- read something connected to those earlier times, try to regain the feeling for the environment. I'm reading now an old book, "The Enchantress" by Katherine Yorke, and it is about a gypsy girl in 18th century England. It strikes me as having that kind of environment I longed for to live in games, books or films when I was 12, and which I never really experienced in any film. It was that search that brought me to RL eventually, a place where I could express myself and build that environment so that I could live it through my players. A bit selfish, perhaps, but a life's need. And although RL is well defined in the books, I alter it somewhat to always meet this kind of feeling, this air of rusticness, isolation and mystery. It becomes awkward when your players act so much in accordance to what they know that they fear the night, but that's what we were trying to capture anyway, the difference being that heroes in an RPG should amply transcend the common folk and one-time improbable heroes of the stories that served as our model.

- throw out what you don't like: this connects to the last one and is what much of us do. Use in that setting only that which conforms to your view, disregard the official history, craft personalities according to your needs. I simply ignore the existence of places like Valachan, Sithicus, Hazlan, Darkon and many others except for geographical references, like "this white panther you see is coming from distant Valachan". But it will never be more like that, it just doesn't fit my dream horror world, which is all about dark forests at night... or mostly that. Vampires and werewolves, that's what makes my world tickle. And of course I don't take part in fan books dedicated to advancing the cultural level, or based on the most advanced domains. That's not my game.

- go back in time: this is not that novel an idea. Someone suggested doing Ravenloft 528 and the thing I immediately thought was Forgotten Realms: Arcane Age. Well, why not?! Play in different time settings, take advantage of what existed by then. But don't make it one-off adventures, you don't need to. Perhaps you can make a whole campaign based on escaping a long plan of a vampire obsessed with Tatyana in a way we can't be in the future simply because he doesn't have anything else to do as of now.

- alter the villains: give them scarier motives, more pervasive or threatening, and perhaps even invincible, as long as you can make a clear attainable goal that does not include killing it, just surviving it. Make things unknown to the players, don't use all the resources at once.

- Or if you really prefer to kill your players and make a Gallery of Unsung Heroes, give it a unifying tone, like memories of a storyteller, portraits in a noble Hall detailing the deeds of the lineage, items in a museum that were recovered from many courageous deeds around the whole land.

I know this is long, I tried to give you what I think and to show that there is a way of doing it yourself without having to go back. Perhaps all we need is to "think it simple" once again.

As for trying to find new players, we can try that if we are DMs looking for player groups, but probably many of us are already set. So, barred that one, I second the idea of making a book with ideas for bringing Innocence back to the game.

Cheers, and if you've read it thus far, thank you.

Alex

[Le Noir Faineant]

Really, we got to spread the disease!

What about opening nothing less than FIVE new PbPs in November?

- Besides my SB one, I could host another, smaller and slower one, if there's interest.

Special aim: Try to recruit people from OTHER SITES than this one here! - Alas, with 5 games running, up to 25 newbies to the setting.

Now, this is a concrete idea - who's with me?

Looking for four more DMs!

[Rotipher of the FoS]

FWIW, I think asking WotC to change that darned "No one can escape the Mists, enter if you dare" comment on the Other Worlds board's menu-entry wouldn't hurt, either. It harkens back to the "kiss your PCs goodbye if your DM sends them to Ravenloft: it's really just an excuse to screw them over!" stereotype, that scared so many players away from the setting back in the old days.

[Jester of the FoS]

[off-topic]

Someone needs to check out Quoth the Raven, the Fraternity's netbook series. Issues #12 and 13 from here:
http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/Library.html

While I wince at plugging myself, I do some lengthy articles on dwarves, halflings and elves (Races of the Mists parts I through III). Next is gnomes whenever we get around to QtR#14.

And all are good. I prefer the halflings however.
And about gnomes, please Jester, change their Favorite class back to wizard...

I'm trying to incorporate all aspects of the races, combine 2E and 3E for everyone.
Unlike halflings and elves which have subraces, I'll probably only have a single race of gnomes that vary by education and preference. So gnomes will likely be bards AND illusionists with a list of spell-like abilities to choose from. They'll have the Domains of Dread Greek-influence with some use of the toga (academic robes? paired with pointed hats?) and the RL: PHB macarbe pranksters look and feel.

[/off-topic]

[Jonathan Winters]

Just want to clarify something I wrote earlier.

I do not want to get rid of DLs. I like them. What I was wondering was more along the lines of wether we absolutely needed them for every adventure. Or to introduce people to RL.

In RL, 99.99% of people have no clue that DLs exist.

AND, to Lord Cyclo...
(please correct me if I'm wrong)
It is pretty much a DM's prerogative what happens when a DL dies. So why not use some domains without them? Maybe the world would make more sense to newcomers this way?

Does RL really (still) need to focus so much on DLs as a setting to make sense?
Maybe FR has a bigger audience because the movers and shakers of the world actually do stuff? And are not confined to one area of the world?
Again I can't help but notice how static the setting is / has become. Maybe we(the fans) need to shake things up a little? BTW, the Frat Surveys are a GREAT way of accomplishing this, IMHO.

I hope I am not rambling too much.

Good night.

Patrick

[Jakob]

Ok, turn of someone who met Ravenloft with 3E.

NO to retcon.
Why? Because it is not the desire to have a "simpler" setting (god, ever take a look at FR history? At the hysteria for Greyhawk canon? Now THAT's complicated*... ): it is nostalgy, something i don't feel for adventures I really don't like (most of them) and I never played.
...
Actually, I played once I6, adapted for 3E. The DM took out an old calendar and laughed: "Guys, this is the body counter!"
...
Do we need again the "Mist take you-some powerful NPC kills you-whoops! You've become a golem/headless corpse/undead kitten-find your body-kill endgame boss-go home!"?
It is a bit trite, don't you think?
I remember while reading Islands of Terror. the shiver of revulsion I felt when I met I'cath: what is the point of the domain, aside from a one-shot concerning freeing the spirit of the only good daughter and killing the darklady? A retconned RL made of islands apt for one-shot horror campaign? Brrrrrr.

Ravenloft has become MORE than a simple "diversion" from a campaign, but it can be it again, if you wish. You can make Ravenloft even akin to Bunnies and Burrows... If you wish.
The good side of RP is that, if you wish, you can make of any setting what you wish.

I don't think that, making again RL a WiH setting, you will call new players. I speak, of course, of Italian players as I know them (I don't say I know ALL of them... I talk for those I know ): they are looking for something more than one-shot adventure in a totally different setting.

Now, on my thoughts on the nature of the setting.
I'm not interested in dungeon exploration (not even a big dungeon to be explored while being harassed by a powerful vampire...), nor are my players, as far as I know.
Ravenloft is perfect for this style of playing. There is no "Castle-Greyhawk-style" dungeon (as far as I know), and the dungeons there are in the setting (or those I tend to build, like I did with the catacombs beneath St. Mere des Larmes in Port-au-Lucine) are prettyy short and simple.
My players are more interested in interacting with the land and the society their characters live in, something possible only in a campaign setting.
The "omg, I'm in land I don't know" feel wanes pretty quickly when the charachters who are subject to it find themselves in a land they don't care about... This feeling can be felt much better IN the campaign setting, by picturing even simple travel between Darkon and Falkovnia, or the great "culture shock" of a Core...er..."Corerner" (How do you say "native to the Core? ) visiting Sri Raji or Rokushima Tayioo.

Everything I said, of course, is just my opinion.

I'd have said more and expressed it in a better way, but I'm REALLY under pressure from work... ^_^

*That said: I love Greyhawk. It is some of its fans that make it so unfriendly to new players... You should have seen the reactions of some posters when I said I moved the first adventure path from Cauldron to Verbobonc... [/i]

[Pamela]

I'm also against retconning. I stayed away from Ravenloft because I thought it was a horror campaign, all doom and gloom. My husband had to drag me into his first campaign, and even then I only agreed to play if my player could come from an advanced domain. If retconning meant we'd lose Zherisia, Dementlieu, and Lamordia, I'd not bother to stick around.

And really, why go back to the past? Why not just go post-ToUD? Say the Dark Powers have weakened enough that their hold on the borders is broken. Let the Land of the Mists finally join the rest of the D&D worlds out there. Give DMs and players the ability to join their ongoing campaigns without tossing out all their previous work and characters, and they might be willing to check it out.

[cure]

I think that level inflation is part of the problem. From first to third edition some of the darklords and other individuals gained substantially in power. With the centuries given to Strahd and Azalin this was not so bad. Their domains should feel claustrophobic too them. But the levels granted to the Weathermay twins in a very short time in VRGTTM or the incredibly high level given to the professor in Dementlieu from the Fraternity of Shadows in the Gazzeteer make the setting feel small. Same problem with some of the younger Dark Lords who should have been left far weaker. Ivana, for example, should be one skilful knife blow from death. Indeed that is how some of the younger Dark Lords came to power.

[Le Noir Faineant]

Ivana, for example, should be one skilful knife blow from death. Indeed that is how some of the younger Dark Lords came to power.

Funny to quote, and very true.

[alhoon]

Ivana, for example, should be one skilful knife blow from death. Indeed that is how some of the younger Dark Lords came to power.

Funny to quote, and very true.

Well, since it is D&D after all, atmosphere and all aside, you can't have Ivana with 6 hit points. Because the idiot of the party could draw out a pistol in a free action and shoot her dead. Quick Draw, a natural 20 in initiatiative. And as you know Pistols have quite enough range for someone to kill Ivana from 100-200' away.
Yes, you could make her a paranoid woman that doesn't get out in the open, goes everywhere surrounded by two dozen bodyguards etc. But Ivana is not quite like this. She is outgoing. She has some "trusted" bodyguards (that she keeps by her using her pretty looks) but that's all.

In RL, 99.99% of people have no clue that DLs exist.

So only 48 people in the Core know about Darklords?

*That said: I love Greyhawk. It is some of its fans that make it so unfriendly to new players... You should have seen the reactions of some posters when I said I moved the first adventure path from Cauldron to Verbobonc...

Why that was in size 6? I gave you out! Ha!

[NeoTiamat]

In RL, 99.99% of people have no clue that DLs exist.

So only 48 people in the Core know about Darklords?

That is why we need a bigger Core.

[Jakob]

*That said: I love Greyhawk. It is some of its fans that make it so unfriendly to new players... You should have seen the reactions of some posters when I said I moved the first adventure path from Cauldron to Verbobonc...

Why that was in size 6? I gave you out! Ha!

Dammit! I got busted!

[Le Noir Faineant]

Well, since it is D&D after all, atmosphere and all aside, you can't have Ivana with 6 hit points. Because the idiot of the party could draw out a pistol in a free action and shoot her dead. Quick Draw, a natural 20 in initiatiative. And as you know Pistols have quite enough range for someone to kill Ivana from 100-200' away.
Yes, you could make her a paranoid woman that doesn't get out in the open, goes everywhere surrounded by two dozen bodyguards etc. But Ivana is not quite like this. She is outgoing. She has some "trusted" bodyguards (that she keeps by her using her pretty looks) but that's all.

Maybe that's just my POV, but really, the human DLs in my campaign are easy to overthrow... In general, the DL-thing plays a lesser role - the mists are the main mean thing there...

[alhoon]

IMO in a world that a skilled person could kill 20 trained guards in minutes (a 10th level fighter or wizard against 2nd level warriors or even 2nd level fighters) and there are monsters as able to do that lurking around, the Darklords should be able to compete them in power.

Can you think of a ghoul eating up Ivana Boritsi? OK, that is difficult but ghouls have good hide checks. A CR 3 walking dead that can turn invisible for a few rounds, or that freakish hungry dead in the VRGttWD that are naturally invisible, could kill Ivana and any low hp character fast.

[Jonathan Winters]

To NeoTiamat,

I have nothing against a bigger Core. I was just saying about DLs.

In my campaign, I haven't defined anything yet with my players, but I think it will be bigger, with more people. I'm just not sure how many people I want.

BUT, that being said, I am of the opinion that almost nobody knows what a DL is. Hell, even some DLs don't know they are trapped in their realm: Drakov, anybody?

But to bring this back to the ret-con issue.

(I will repeat that we don't need to ret-con. Come to think of it, it would feel to me like a ''dumbing down'' of the setting.)

I just had an idea. (We are throwing ideas out there aren't we?)

What if we do a ''52'' type project for RL?

Let me explain for everybody who doesn't read comic books. (I wasn't gonna read it, but I was given good reviews and picked it up. I'm not too crazy about the space thing, but the rest is actually very good.)

DC Comics has decided to copy 24 the TV show (in a way), BUT what they did was fast forward events in their core books by one year.
Now 52 is the story relating the events of the ''last'' year, one week at a time.

What if the next Frat project is set after the ToUD? No story, no reason, nothing.
THEN: everything gets explained slowly?

I don't know... Like I said, just throwing ideas. Maybe it'll inspire someone else with something better.

Patrick