Detecting Evil: Holy Smite & Holy Word

[cure]

The Ravenloft Campaign Setting (RCS) under the section Detecting Alignment (Chapter Three, "Altered Magic", p. 92-93) says that the Dark Powers shield Evil from magical detection and in particular that magical alignment detection along the Good/Evil axis is impossible with obvious consquences for the spells Detect Good and Detect Evil (they do not work). Equally, spells such as Hallow, Unhallow, and Glyph of Warding, which may target an alignment, cannot target an alignment on the Good/Evil axis. Where matters become murky is that "[M]agic effects that detect alignment only in an indirect fashion (such as protection from evil or a paladin's smite evil ability) often still work." Protection from Evil is said to work against those "known to be evil" but that is immediately qualified as "a very delicate matter best handled at the discretion of the DM." Protection from Good has no restrictions attached to it (and indeed it does not merit a Powers Check). Blasphemy (the evil equivalent of Holy Word) is unrestricted in this respect, as is the case with Unholy Blight (the equivalent of Holy Smite).

Now the issues that are generated thereby. The effects of a Forbiddance spell confirm a difference between the caster's and victim's alignment. The effects of Blasphemy let you distinguish Good and Neutral from Evil. The effects of Unholy Blight let you not only distinguish Good and Neutral from Evil but moreover Good from Neutral. Equally, the effects of Holy word let you distinguish Evil and Neutral from Good. And the effects of Holy Smite let you not only distinguish Evil and Neutral from Good but moreover to distinguish Evil from Neutral.

Perhaps this is fine in that the notion of a good character running the risk of killing people to establish their alignment is precisely the sort of behaviour that the Dark Powers are looking to reward. More worrying, it provides a magical means, both simple and certain, for an essentially Evil organisation such as the Church of the Lawgiver to purge from its upper ranks those not sworn to Evil. Worse perhaps, a good character who is convinced of the evil of enemies and of the rightness of striking them down receives a magical confirmation that his assessment of their alignment was correct. Arguably, this is balanced in that the magical proof of a terrible error wrought, rather than of grim justice served, may be forthcoming. Either way however, certainty about alignment is gained, albeit perhaps too late.

Does this seem correct in terms of the spirit of Ravenloft? Is this a necessary and reasonable compromise between gothic and high-magic? Should this be done differently? Should Forbiddance, Blasphemey, Holy Word, Unholy Blight, and Holy Smite be eliminated or at least their effects be narrowed to Innocents, Outsiders, and perhaps Darklords? How would you play this?

[Mortavius]

One thing to remember with spells like Holy Smite, there's an effect on Neutral and Evil characters, and saves allowed. There's no reason that the caster of the spell should know how much damage the victim suffered, and whether they saved or not.
So it's true, one can determine whether the victim is Neutral or Evil with this spell, it can't tell you which. And really, if someone is out there casting 4th-level spells just to find out if someone is evil or not, then they already have more problems upstairs...

[Lord Cyclohexane]

Does this seem correct in terms of the spirit of Ravenloft? Is this a necessary and reasonable compromise between gothic and high-magic? Should this be done differently? Should Forbiddance, Blasphemey, Holy Word, Unholy Blight, and Holy Smite be eliminated or at least their effects be narrowed to Innocents, Outsiders, and perhaps Darklords? How would you play this?

I don't see to great of an effect from these spells, myself. Holy Smite is relatively useful for determining alignment, but as it's a 4th level spell and only available to those with the Good domain, it's not something that's going to come up often (your example of the Church of the Lawgiver trying to purge evil people, for example, wouldn't work as they don't get Good as a potential domain). This is before even looking at in-game effects, as the townspeople are not likely to look favorably upon a cleric who walks in, waves his hands, and drops half the people in agony. It doesn't look like something a good cleric would do. It's more likely that such an individual walked in and cast unholy blight than that he walked in and cast holy smite.

The above, however, could lead to interesting PC connections, though, as an evil cleric (who's picked up the Evil domain) casts unholy blight on the group of politicians, which drops the good and neutral ones. The cleric then convinces the PCs that he'd actually cast holy smite and had revealed all of the evil individuals, attempting to use the PCs to destroy the last few decent people in the local government...

As for Forbiddance, it only affects people who have a different alignment than yourself. But do you really know what your own alignment is? Are you so certain that you're a good character? Not to mention, if your alignment is different on just *one* axis, it causes 6d6 points of damage, enough to slay all but the hardiest commoners. If you're using this to determine people's alignments, you're *definitely* not a good character.

And as for Holy Word and Blasphemy? That's even worse. Both are 7th level spells, requiring a cleric of level 13. However, if the person hit by it is 10 or more levels less than the cleric, the person dies. So again, if you're using this to determine the alignment of commoners, you're definitely not a good character. Not to mention, at 13th level you've got more to worry about since you're likely attracting the attention of the darklord of the domain.

Anyway, I see no problem with the spells, considering their rarity, their poor quality of determining alignment (is that person good or does he just have a great Will save?) and the risk of manslaughter and Powers Checks that come along with the power of them.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

What Lord Cyc said. Plus, faiths in Ravenloft probably don't think about Good, Evil and Neutrality in the same way as more mechanics-driven game philosophies presume. They'll consider some behaviors "wrong" (which may or may not be Evil in the absolute sense; adultery is a classic example of a "wrong" act that is unlikely to count as true Evil by game definitions), and some behaviours "right" (likewise, not necessarily Good), and will likely not consider the gray area in between to be a valid stance, philosophically (i.e. "Neutral" doesn't exist for them). This being Ravenloft we're talking about, faiths would also recognize a fouler form of evil -- that which is supernatural and abnormal -- than anything mundane humans are capable of ... but even then, their definition of what qualifies as "foul" may deviate from what game-mechanics says is Evil (e.g. Tepestani pogroms against innocent spellcasters).

So it's not a question of clerics in Ravenloft asking themselves, "How can we get around these DP-imposed restrictions to find out what's really Good or Evil out there?"; it's a question of them saying "We know cheating on one's spouse is inherently wrong, yet Holy Smite didn't work against that adulteress ... gosh, she must be formidable, to have resisted the spell!"

[Nathan of the FoS]

The other option is to divide it up on the basis of religion, rather than alignment. So if a LG cleric of Ezra casts Holy (Ezran) Word, nothing happens to the LE cleric of Ezra standing next to him, but the NG cleric of Hala falls over twitching.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

The other option is to divide it up on the basis of religion, rather than alignment. So if a LG cleric of Ezra casts Holy (Ezran) Word, nothing happens to the LE cleric of Ezra standing next to him, but the NG cleric of Hala falls over twitching.

Or, more's the point, the LG cleric of Belenus.

[Spiteful Crow]

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantIT ... ript?SK=11

[ScS of the Fraternity]

For years you have wondered how the Dark Powers sheild alignments - now learn their unholy methods: http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantIT ... ipt?SK=202

[cure]

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantIT ... ript?SK=11

Very amusing.

I like the idea of a Word of Ezra (and such) as it moves us away from mechanical alignment and towards philosophy and doctrine, which moreover is manifestly necessary in a religion spanning a wide range of alignments.

My concern and motive is not good characters doing bad things. The Dark Powers take care of them.

It is rather that an intelligent and powerful evil organisation such as the Church of the Lawgiver can with magic - despite the difficulty of detecting alignment in gothic ravenloft - know easily and mechanically that no member of its upper ranks has insufficient iron in his/her heart (neutral) let alone harbours the weakness and error of mercy and kindness (good). A 4th level Unholy Blight spell cast on an individual basis by a 7th level cleric or a 6th level Forbiddance spell cast by an 11th level cleric once and used as a permanent testing site affords the church certainty with the added benefit - rather than cost - of probably killing those found wanting.

A gothic framework that allows this seems a little loose to me. A church convulsed by heretics of lawful evil alignment is still possible. But in sitting down to consider what esoteric rites of testing that priests suspected of waywardness and priests destined for high rank would be subjected to, I was distressed to discover that there was no need as magic keyed to alignment still works admirably.

I suppose the question is whether the Mists wish to shield only Evil while affording Evil certainty about Good and Neutrality or at least about insufficient Evil, or whether the mists want to deny certainty to all along the Good-Evil axis.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

There are much simpler ways of screening out Good members from the Evil faiths, that don't require the use of magic at all. The Lawgiver faith, for example, no doubt requires its upper-rank members to "prove their devotion" by horrifically abusing heretics and dissidents: something even Neutral characters wouldn't stomach. Or, if they did grit their teeth and go through with it, such "iron-lacking" clergy wouldn't remain Neutral for long. Why waste magic to maybe determine if someone's Evil, if you can hand them a barbed whip and let them openly demonstrate that fact? It's not as if the Lawgiver's faith doesn't endorse torture as an inherent duty of its clergy, anyway; such a corrupt faith would prefer such a "hands-on" test of a priest's resolve to a magical one.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

I suppose the question is whether the Mists wish to shield only Evil while affording Evil certainty about Good and Neutrality or at least about insufficient Evil, or whether the mists want to deny certainty to all along the Good-Evil axis.

If they wanted to allow Evil certainty about Good, but not vice versa, then evil clerics' spells of alignment-detection would probably work perfectly well, even as good clergy and paladins would be deprived of such powers of discernment. I think the DPs simply obscure all aspects of alignment-detection, without favoritism to one side or the other, to force people to figure things out for themselves and to foster doubt on both sides.

The fact that Evil has an easier time taking advantage of the situation (by whatever means) is a result of Evil being unscrupulous and ruthless by its very nature, not of deliberate DP bias. Hypothetically, Good could use the same spell-effects to screen out Evil and Neutral alignments as you say, but it refuses to do so because its higher standard of conduct requires it to spurn such methods. This gets to the core of how Good is different from (more foolish than? or truly better than?) Evil, a concept which is pivotal to the DPs' "experiment" IMO.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

I see no reason why a good faith could not do these things, as long as they warned the group first. "The righteous have no need to fear what comes; those who have doubt in their own purity are free to leave."

Another question, though, is whether either of these tests could be foiled by Use Magical Device to fake an alignment.

That being said, I agree with Rotipher that it's infinitely easier to demonstrate evil actions than good ones.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Another question, though, is whether either of these tests could be foiled by Use Magical Device to fake an alignment.

UMD could be used to fake alignment if you were asked to, say, handle an aligned weapon as a test. It's got nothing to do with resisting spell effects or alignment-targeting special abilities, although I suppose a DM could invent a feat that would permit it to be used in this way.

[Mortavius]

What about spells like Nondetection? Would they protect you? I still hold to my earlier statements, that the caster doesn't know how much damage he caused the enemy, and really all he can tell is if the enemy is different than his own alignment.

And in say, the Church of the Lawgiver, there are many Lawful Neutral members and they are certainly tolerated within the church as they have their role and place.

[Carcer]

I see no reason why a good faith could not do these things, as long as they warned the group first. "The righteous have no need to fear what comes; those who have doubt in their own purity are free to leave."

That's assuming they even know what they're own alignment is in the first place. If an evil person believes they are good than they will suffer the consequence of their uniformed consent.

Futhermore detecting alignment does not reveal the degree of goodness or evil. A good character who detected the presence of evil would be no closer to knowing whether he was dealing with a murderer or a person who habitually lies about his past deeds in order to impress people. Both lying and murder can count as the actions of evil people, but few would say that lying is as a bad as killing someone. With that in mind, even knowing someone is evil doesn't tell you how should treat them.

The best way for a character to judge someone is by examining their actions. Magic that detects alignment can point you in the right direction but it doesn't tell you what your destination will be.