Lawful Good and Interrogation

[nowonmai]

I have been discussing with a player how a Lawfull Good organization would deal with torture/ interrogation. What spells and methods would they use? Also considering I try to give a more "realistic" outlook to a campaign in how methods were really used. After all, Good must have a way of extracting info, especially after offering kits like the paladins inquisitors and the like. Now to give a more specific background on why I am asking for opinions, here is the situation:

I have been running a 2nd ed Planescapes campaign for well over 3 years, and the PC (single player the whole way, for max role playing) is a Aasimar paladin with the Order of the Planes Militant. He is considered to be a Lord Knight (which he did earn over time, rank by rank), which in my campaign I consider to be one step above a Knight title, and one step below a Lord status. Sort of as a Baron in a OotPM status. He has a small stronghold which also has a small village outside of Excelsior, the gate town to Mount Celestia. The Order, naturally as I play it, is the leading law and order in Excelsior

Now, in the past he failed to stop Sougad Lawshredder in the Harbinger House adventure, and since then he has taken a personal vendetta against him and his followers (guilt). He has come to several conflicts with his followers by this point, always them striking subtly but deadly.

By this time, he recently recieved note from his seneschal while in Crux (in the Dead Gods campaign) that his pregnant wife has been poisened by a midwife of Sougad he did not suspect, and that his son was force born premature to evade death. A wizard friend of his has done a variant of Empathic Transfer of her to the baby, to prolong life.

Since then he has found and captured the midwife and has turned her over to the inquisitors of the Order. I have figured, being a strong figure head of truth and justice, they MUST have some sort of finders in these matters, but by what method? So I have been thinking of methods they would use, being not too cruel for torture (considering the real past). Here is what I have, but I am looking for more (please do not think that I am not considering a evil sway for his convictions, considereing she hasnt gone to trial):

- A "fasting" period of starvation in a cell.
-The paladin lord has suggested a hot brazier kept near her at all times (he likes this since he venerates the Babylonian god Girru)
- Hanging by the arms; if the persecution persists she may be hung from her arms behind her, like the Spanish Inquisition times
- Severe lecturing at all times about the various Scriptures of Heaven

If this has been discussed elsewhere, sorry for the long entry

[Reginald de Curry]

There is nothing Lawful or Good about torture, and your examples all qualify as such. Unless your inquisitors are acting outside the Lawful Good alignment, you'd best have them use negotion skills to gain information, giving rewards for cooperation where the info is verified. Charm Person, ESP, and mind-reading magics, if available in your campaign, would also be useful (ex.: Rings of "Truth").

[HuManBing]

I don't think there's anything wrong with interrogation as long as it's kept within reasonable means.

A LG person might be able to take part in a good cop/bad cop interrogation by playing the good cop, though it would require that they knew the bad cop player wouldn't press the suspect too hard or unreasonably.

Basically, damage to the physical body is morally unjustifiable. Certain forms of non-lethal injuries are also very questionable (e.g. CIA waterboarding, which doesn't leave a mark but generates the illusion or the feeling of drowning). Psychological methods could be more justifiable provided they don't leave lasting damage.

I think as the above poster mentioned your best bet is probably to use magical forms of interrogation. That way it's impossible to harm the suspect.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

For that matter, even tricking the information out of a captive (rather Chaotic) would be far preferable to torturing it out of them (definitely Evil). Paladins can be forgiven for Chaotic acts, but not Evil ones.

[ScS of the Fraternity]

A lawful good character has some options open when it comes to interrogation. Just think of the cops on law and order when they grill a suspect. Being lawful good doesn't mean warm hugs and revolving door prisons.

As a general rule, I'd say ask "What would Batman do?"


There are a wide range of threats open, ranging from turning them over to the authorities, to the old classic of holding them two inches from a moving millstone.

Granted, the character can not actually hurt people. But, so long as the person theyère interrogating doesnèt know that, thereès no problem.

[Jennifer]

Hello all,
an intresting problem indeed, how far will a lawful good person go to obtain information he really really needs.

First of all, is his moral compas of good vs evil and law vs chaos objective or subjective? If it is objective, there are certain acts and deeds which are good or bad (or lawful or evil), no matter who you are, where you come from or what you want. Then there would be very clear boundaries, which are not to be crossed.
If his moral compass is subjective, namely that he (and other members of his culture, sect, religion or what have you) think that certain acts and deed are good or evil, but members of other cultures may find those acts the exact opposite. (For example killing for revenge, where I come from it is definitely a no-no, no matter how far you are pushed, yet in other cultures killing for revenge is perhaps regrettable, but at times necessary).

So, what does his culture and lawful good order think of interrogating and torture for the greater good. It could be a definite no-no. (nothing is more important than the inviolate integrety of sentient beings). Perhaps it is permissable in certain circumstances (For the greater good! (hello sliding scale)). It could even be considered a good act (evil beings must be shown the error of their ways, pain is merely an unavoidable side effect).

If his order sees the benefit of interrogation, harsh interrogation methods and perhaps even torture, he might use them. There might even be prescribed methods of torture. (people mentioned the inquisition before, the inquisition published study books on how to pressure and eventually torture people in the most effective ways, all to make them confess and preserve them for heavenly mercy of course. these books were quite ingenious and contained methods of psychological pressures and tortures as well.)

But you of course want methods.

• prayer for the sinner, in non-stop prayer by nuns (or what have you) who stand over the interrogated person in relays. (sleep deprivation, its from a short heinlein story)
  the prisoner are attended by people they know/ respect, who constantly comment on their wicked ways. (women accused of witchcraft were attended by fellow female villagers, who constantly berated them for their sins)
  enforced nudity in company (although this only bothers some people).
  And the methods of magical interrogation would work as well. There is an alqadim spell with a burning candle, the candle goes out if a lie is spoken in its presence.

Jennifer

[Rotipher of the FoS]

First of all, is his moral compas of good vs evil and law vs chaos objective or subjective?

More importantly, does the gamemaster consider D&D alignments to be objective or subjective? If the DM applies a strict, consistent standard of what qualifies as Good or Evil, irregardless of species, culture, creed or upbringing, then it won't matter how subjective the character's personal standards are: if the PC does something the DM defines as Evil, then it is Evil within the context of that campaign, and the character is in error to think it otherwise.

[cure]

Torture is evil.

The proof is the lies that people tell themselves to try to believe otherwise, which is to say it is corrosive of their very souls.

It is to become what one claims to be opposing, by declaring its supposed standards the touchstone for one's own.

It is also unlawful. And those who practice it would in a society of laws, rather than of men, be in jail, whatever their previous rank, for a very long time.

[Hazgarn]

I'd agree that torture is evil under any circumstances, however, I'll contest its being inherently unlawful. What the ultimate authority of any society deems acceptable practice is technically lawful, so where torture would be unlawful in just about any good-aligned society, but in a neutral or evil society it might not be.

Though there are plenty of methods of interrogation besides torture, a few of which have already been mentioned, ranging from strategic questioning to bargaining to magical detection.

[cure]

No, I am not saying that torture is inherently unlawful. I am saying that it is illegal in the state of laws that prevails in the developed countries of our world yet is practiced and defended in defiance of those very laws in some of said countries, constituting thereby the thin edge of the wedge that threatens to again usher into existence a world in which power is above law and law is used to oppress rather than to facilitate and to free. Or in different terms, those who define themselves as 'good' are unlimited in their actions against whomever they define as 'evil,' which of course is whomever opposes their would be tyranny of righteousness. "You are with us and good or against us and evil, and as evil, nothing we do to you, and do to our country in getting after you, is wrong."

[Hazgarn]

I'd say that the elevation of the powerful above the law isn't something that can be said to have been successfully avoided. In fact, personal experience has shown that those who enforce the law can be some of the worst offenders. Though that's probably mostly off-topic...

[Rotipher of the FoS]

What's worked for me IMC:

Lawful is doing what society says is right, Chaotic is doing the opposite.

Good is doing what actually is right, Evil is doing the opposite.

Law/Chaos is subjective, being dictated by the rules, traditions, precepts and/or expectations of the society (culture, nation, organization, faith, oppressed minority, etc) to which the person most strongly belongs. It doesn't necessarily have to concern the "laws of the land", as a person may be affiliated just as closely with a faction or subculture that's not acknowledged by the government (e.g. the Lawful Evil mafia don); if they obey the rules of that subculture for the sake of tradition/correctness, they're still Lawful.

Good/Evil is objective, and is determined solely by the DM, who is obligated to make these distinctions clear to the players (e.g. if torture is Evil IYC, tell the player before they have their paladin resort to torture). If society says that torture is justified under certain circumstances, that only makes it Lawful, not Good. The in-game society's standards can't overrule the DM's own definition of what is Good or Evil.

[cure]

A lawful good character does not lightly set aside the law of the land when that law is not unjust. The mob in the street may well want to lynch the culprit of a crime who they have in their hands. The lawful good character may too legitimately want that culprit dead. But the lawful good character wants him tried, found guilty, and hung through a fair process of law, and should save the culprit from the mob. Good itself is seen as relying upon and usually requiring law, which is to say that law is taken to be a force for good.

A lawful neutral character may or may not set aside the law of the land. He may well identify himself with some higher law, be it natural (Darwinism) or traditional (the vendetta culture). Law is a value unto itself, although some instances are more perfect than others.

A lawful evil character is likely to set aside the law of the land. He probably identifies himself with some rule governed organisation interested in usurping the state for itself, in its own right (Faithfhold or diabolical theocracy) or indirectly (the Church of the Lawgiver, the mafia, the KGB) by creating puppets. Evil itself is seen as wanting and ultimately requiring law, which is to say that law is taken to be a force for evil.