"How would you re-envision Ravenloft for 4E?"

[Lord Soth]

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=215553

Just thought I'd post the link to a discussion under the above thread title on ENWorld, here, in case anyone's interested in taking part in it.

[cure]

I won't. There is no need to make changes driven by said new rules.

[Archedius]

Wow, I dislike most of what was said in that thread. Bad ideas all around for the most part. I don't get how people on that thread have a problem with domains and darklords. As it is for most things DL's have to rely on spys anyway- aside from a few select ones that have very guarded vulnerabilities such as Strahd or Kharkov (Azalin as he appears in the Gaz 2 is pretty much the god of Darkon for straight up combat and I really don't see a RL party taking him out; or even getting at his phylac)
At most for 4E, update the rules and leave the content- story progression should be the DM's pervue.
I probably won't be upgrading to 4th- 3.5 is fine for me and using Midnight's channelled magic system fixes magic from my point of view.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

"No ethereal plane"? Why does WotC keep changing the universe and what have they done now?
Where do these people get the idea the darklords are "perfectly powerful tyrants"? Having weaknesses is a pretty intrinsic trait of the position, in my opinion ...
Releasing one big Gazetteer for all of Ravenloft sounds peachy, but it'd be a monster of a book and expensive as all get-out, if previous experiences are anything to go by.
What makes these folks think that a Darklord wouldn't happily trade their domain-given powers for the ability to leave the domain and go where they want? The smarter, more tortured ones, anyway.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

agreed... I posted something to that effect, more than I really intended to when I started.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

So far, it seems as if the opinions here and at that thread are pretty opposed. ... And I must say I feel like I'm in the right place. The fact that the demiplane is freaking weird, yet most people on it try to rationalize it and pretend it's normal, is part of what makes the setting so good -- to me. When characters finally wake up and see the unnaturalness, that's when the fun begins.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

Although (being the 4e devil's advocate of the FoS), Jon Wake made some very impressive points about Ravenloft as a whole.

[Ivana_Boritsi]

However, John Wake was also largely in favor of a reboot.

Would you also advocate for that?

[Ivana_Boritsi]

What makes these folks think that a Darklord wouldn't happily trade their domain-given powers for the ability to leave the domain and go where they want? The smarter, more tortured ones, anyway.

I think the point was that one of the coolest things about Ravenloft has been and always will be the Darklords. It's really cool to read about and implement these really cool NPCs.

However, you can't get them to really interact in any meaningful way at all, because they are all trapped in their Domains. So I can see that argument.

Besides, any Darklord leaving their Domain and losing all of their powers (but probably retaining their curses, right? After all, it is Ravenloft) would be painting a gigantic, big, red target on their back.

So, I could see revising Ravenloft so that the Darklords could interact more. Maybe giving them the ability to leave their Domain isn't it, but it would be cool to see land get shaken up more by inter-Domain rivalry.

[Jester of the FoS]

What I wrote there:
Ravenloft does not need to be changed for 4E, other than a slight nip-n-tuck for the planar elements and the new races.
Period. End of sentence.

Now, the why is the interesting part. Primarily this is because there wasn’t a lot of changed with 3E. The developers and writers knew the setting was only a rental so they just updated and described while adding new details. And its tenure in 2E was short with half the products of other worlds.
There are no massive contradictions or huge card houses propped hazardly up or lengthy updates for new rules systems. Not a lot has been changed and not a lot needs to be changed back or undone or rethought. There is no convoluted origin to the world as we’re not entirely sure of the whys and whos only that Strahd was the first and he made a pact with Death before killing his brother on his wedding day.

Can Ravenloft be changed? Yes. In many ways the world would work better in less of a planar aspect or with no darklords or no strict domain borders. But too many people like those to wipe those casually away.
Unlike other settings there’s no large vocal consensus. Everyone who looks long and hard at the Realms wonders “why doesn’t Elminister or one of the other 1000 high level guys just step in?”

What are the problems with Ravenloft?
1) It’s a demiplane in the ethereal sea. The latter doesn’t exist anymore and the former is fantastic and instantly removes some element of normality. However, making it a real world makes it harder to have it ‘steal’ lands and people.
Solution: avoid directly saying what and where Ravenloft is. Simply state what it does and leave its nature mysterious.

2) It’s teeny-tiny. However, enlarging it removes all the claustrophobic elements and also requires changing things like population and redoing things like the size of cities on the fly.
Solution: avoid scale. Let individual DMs decide how big it should be. Or offer alternatives.

3) Its static with all the politics and threats of war between lands being paper tigers as the actual borders can’t shift? But removing domains altogether changes how darklords work and the reflection of the person on the land.
Solution: below

4) Players feel it’s a no-win, PC meat grinder setting. No, that’s Call of Cthulu because, as many people pointed out, you can’t frighten a dead PC. And no change to the setting will prevent DMs from using it to insta-kill munchkins.
Solution: none. We can emphasise the point-of-light aspects to the campaign and encourage a mix of the helplessness of the gothic with the necessary heroism as well as encouraging DMs to give out “the win” when necessary.

So, back to the point on the thread, how would I update Ravenloft for 4E?

First, I’d have some event in the past that shook up the planes adding the shadowfell and feywild. I believe some members of the fan community are working on this already, but really all it needs to be is a nebulous even in the past.
The two side planes border the mainland but also overlap in places with the feywild having many points of crossing in Sithicus and the Shadow Rift being a nexus between all three worlds. Sithicans easily take the role of eladrin, as the more magical and wild of fey, while Darkonian elves are just elves.

Tieflings and warlocks fit so effortlessly in the setting it’s hardly even worth commenting on.
Dragonborn? They’re not going to fit…

I’d downplay the darklords as a physical threat. Taking a step back to the 3rd Edition book that didn’t feature stats I’d actually keep that. Leave the darklords statless save as nebulous foes pulling strings, or not. Giving them stats just encourages people to try and fight them. They might work better as figures entirely behind the scenes or simply so powerful (or hidden) that you just can’t confront them.
If they were ever stated out it’d be a good idea to give them multiple statblocks instead of one authoritarian lump. Give them a lvl20 write-up, a lvl30 and then a beefed-up lvl30 so they can be used in multiple campaigns or modified.

Timeline? I’d keep up the current trend of advancing one year in the setting for one year in the real world. This would mean it’s currently 762, or four years after the publication of the last campaign setting. Or more likely it’ll five or six years between campaign settings by the time Ravenloft sees any 4E attention. That’s plenty of time to squeeze in a minor apocalypse and have some local political changes and upheaval.

Now here’s the big change: I’d differentiate political borders from domain borders. Domain borders would not shift or change but the rulers of lands and political borders would.
For example, Mordent, Richemulot, and Dementlieu would all be a single nation divided into three rough regions. The above nation, Valachan and Invidia would be fighting over borders and who can claim the wild wood of Verbrek and its resources. Meanwhile, Falkovnia would be in the middle of an invasion of Borca, which would not have some of Barovia as its territory. Nova Vassa would also subsume Hazlan. Smaller lands like Karatakas, Tepest and the like as well as much of Barovia would be smaller city-states ruled by local lords who sometimes offer protection money to larger lords or neighboring nations.
Meanwhile, the actual domain boundaries would be unchanged. Some lords would be the leaders of respective nations or provinces while others would prefer to remain behind the scenes.

The big idea for change always seems to be “the darklords should be able to leave their domains”. I’m almost tempted to dismiss it just because it’s so popular. But I agree with it. Darklords should be able to move between lands, but they should be weakened while doing so. Thus they usually stay at the centre of their power where they have the strongest tie to the land.
This might work well as a justification for the multiple stats for the truly anal fans. In their lairs at the peak of their power they have statblock-A. Elsewhere in the domain the have statblock-B. And when they cross a border their power drops to its weakest, statblock-C.

I might be tempted to kill a lord or two.
Malken, for example, is just getting too damn old for what the character should be. It’s easy enough to have the curse passed to another family member and it might be interesting to keep it a mystery as to who the lord really is.
Ditto Vlad Drakov, although, since the setting is now missing one, I might have him die and be resurrected as a deathknight.
Ivana would fake her own death and come back after half a decade as her own daughter. She might be a lord-in-exile living in Dementlieu, while her brother desperately tries to hold the border from the Falkovnian hordes.

The best change might be presentation. Online publication would be the best way to present Ravenloft. Go back to its roots and encourage DMs to use it for one-shot games, the traditional Weekend in Hell adventures. Either as a break between campaigns or as a place in a larger story. If published on D&DI/Dragon it would let the setting reach a wider audience who could then pick the setting for monsters, adventures, places, villains or use for a one-shot tale of horror. Instead of a large world that has to be used as a whole, the campaign should be presented with multiple uses from the get-go.
It can be the location of a full campaign. It can be the location of a Weekened-in-hell adventure. It can be used to pull a land that can be inserted in an existing campaign.
This especially works with the modular nature of the setting where land can be described as a microcosm instead of as a piece of a larger whole. The main ‘rules’ and setting information could easily be published as a major article online and then the smaller lands could be filled in as time passes.

[cure]

I have to confess to not being sympathetic in the least to complaints about Ravenloft being too static, politically in particular.

Let us do a brief tour:

Darkon was decapitated, nearly split into five or six rump states, after a few years got back its Rex, but never recovered its capital which is now a seperate land.

G'henea vanished into the Mists.

Malkovnia vanished into the Sea of Sorrows.

A yawning hole of swirling mist opened on the borders of Barovia, Nova Vaasa, Tepest, Falkovnia and Borca.

Arak was annex by Darkon. It's most famous mountain ended up in Keening and its its remaining inhabitants at the bottom of the Shadow rift.

Darkon and Nova Vaasa gained a sea.

The Sea of Sorrows further gained the island of Dominina and lost the islands of Graben and Toldstein and the Nocturnal Sea acquired them.

In living memory Jacqueline succeeded her grandfather as the leader of Richemulot.

In living memory Arkendale vanished and Vebrek came to be under the secret leadership of Timothy. (I can't recall the exact details on this one.)

Ivana and Ivan merged their states into one.

Duke Gundar was assassinated and half his country was annexed by Barovia and the other half by Invidia.

Invidia acquired a full-fledged civil war between the most recent ruler of record and her recently acquired son.

Sithicus lost it's leader and is in a greater state of decay than before.

Paridon alone survived of its country and discovered that its people were being hunted by at least one and probably two monstrous races. Happily it at least acquired permanent Mistways to the Core.

The Amber Wastes came together.

The Shadowland Cluster came together.

Did I miss anything?

Further, there are Darklords, and of course mere political leaders, that can be killed. Iconic Strahd is no simple matter nor is Azalin. Although we might be due for Count Strahd XII and of course Azalin was but recently dead (or rather dispersed). But how about the recognised leaders of Nova Vaasa, Tepest (to the degree it has any), Sithicus, Valachan, Verbrek, Invidia, Borca, Mordent, Richemulot, Dementlieu, and Lamordia, to stick to the Core? You have a good plan for taking down any one or any two or any three of them in your campaign, go ahead, knock yourself out.

Frankly, Europe in its heyday was hardly such a busy of place, and certainly had no comparable changes in physical geography.

Now if you want democratic elections every five years or maybe a government falling every six months or so like in Italy, or the coup de jour as in several countries I won't name, then perhaps it is not for you. At least you can't complain about invasions, well advised or otherwise. For Ravenloft is entirely competitive there.

Finally, maybe we should hold a replace-a-Dark-Lord contest. The winner will have presented the most compelling replacement for an existing Darklord who is past date. That is to say that it is fine to complain about X Darkord being too long in the teeth . . . as long as you have a more compelling replacement. Once we have our man, woman, or unsexed monster, we could then write a campaign adventure culminating in the replacement.

[Wiccy of the Fraternity]

"Ravenloft should be the scary campaing setting, but vampires, werewolves, ghosts, mummies and sinister gipsies don't scare D&D players."

Gotta me my favourite quote from the thread, whoever said that isn't running the game properly, lol. I scare players with cats, let alone the real scaries. It's all about mood and setting the scene

Seriously though, the way people are going on in that thread, they may as well create a new setting since alot of what is Ravenloft seems to be removed in what they'd like to see.

[Ivana_Boritsi]

Seriously though, the way people are going on in that thread, they may as well create a new setting since alot of what is Ravenloft seems to be removed in what they'd like to see.

I think there are certain sacred cows in Ravenloft that you would want to keep. But a reboot would not be impossible. I dunno. Some of what they are saying on that thread is bollocks, but some of it could work.

The problem is this - there are how many registered users on this board? 600+? If every single registered user bought a Ravenloft book that was put out to please us hard-core fans...it would be a failure as a publication. It would simply not sell enough to make any money.

Don't get me wrong, I obviously love Ravenloft and the setting and the characters. I just can see what people are saying in that if it is to survive, it will have to evolve.

[cure]

Ravenloft won't 'survive' by becoming 'Realms' lite, or 'Grishawk', or by being led by the 'Dread Elf Pirate of Lake Baratok' and his Hag cohort 'Madame Eva.' Ravenloft is not the wonderful world of Elmeister where happy endings abound and where the mermaid gets her prince (if you will excuse the mixing of metaphors). Nor is it the wonderful world of Arnold where you can simply count on the good guy coming back and thrashing the big bad evil guy no matter how big and bad and evil he is. In Ravenloft you have to pick your fights, you have to worry about the consequences for your soul and those of others of your actions, and victory is often knowing when to make your escape. Further, if you want to be long for the Mists, you have to learn that the Vistani are to be feared, respected, sought out and trusted only so far. If you don't like their prices and want to bash in their heads, well have a nice curse. You want your teleport spell and only your teleport spell to ferry you about? Again, get yourself to a new setting. Because in Ravenloft political domains impose themselves on magic and if that is too burdensome or too boring to learn let alone contemplate, please park your fireball somewhere else. In short, Ravenloft can always be improved, but not by gutting it so that it looks like something else that it is not and could never convincingly be.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

No I am NOT advocating an entire revamp.

Jon Wake has however emphasized a few points that would make Ravenloft more introspective as a horror roleplaying game: that in-game-wise there is something inherently wrong with the world, and that it needs fixing.

Ravenloft is often seen as the "world of evil" by many gamers. But if I were to bring Ravenloft to 4e I would remove that notion and instead present Ravenloft as the world of Fear, in its many manifestations. I would present an angle to the Dark Powers, unknowable as they are, as perhaps "collectors" of the multiverse's fears, thus bringing forth Ravenloft. To negotiate a compromise between the hardline Ravenloft fans and the new fans who thin Ravenloft is too dark, I would remove the concept of Ravenloft as a "prison plane" but still keep its isolated and unreachable nature in the Shadowfell. I would remove the current restrictions on magic (such as on divination), and instead put in certain dangers and "dramatic failures" if for example a spell doesn't work properly or fizzles.

Jester has made good points about how Ravenloft could be presented in 4e, especially how domain lords could now travel across domain borders with severely diminished powers (maybe an effect of the seeming disappearance of the ethereal plane). Finding Strahd in Egertus doesn't seem like a bad idea, but here for example he needs the earth of Barovia to survive or to only drink the blood of a Barovian even quench his thirst. This would actually spawn interesting interactions between the politics of the domains themselves.

Perhaps the default alignment would be "unaligned" or "no alignment" for ALL player characters (even paladins and yes the domain lords themselves).

One maxim to the success of viable D&D worlds is "If it works in D&D, then it works in _________." This of course is unacceptable to hardcore fundamentalist Ravenloft fans, so I propose an alternative: Ravenloft in 4e could maybe be the mature D&D setting, catering to mature gamers (in the tradition of Book of Vile Darkness and Book of Exalted Deeds). Its focus would be on mature themes, giving for example Hazlik the room he needs to feel open about his sexuality. Making Ravenloft a mature setting would of course require a reconfiguration in mood, allowing for example in-game mature language and situations to be played, perhaps even mature art (not adult art, mind you there's a difference) to be created for it.

The impending release of 4e has greatly affected by the way my own release of the Player's Guide to Ravenloft and the current downtime of the Midway Haven site. The original concept for the Player's Guide (and Midway Haven as a whole) was to present the fact that yes, Ravenloft is a world controlled heavily by the DM, but that the players and their characters should also have a fair fighting chance to know something about the world around them. I am absolutely sick of people who think that "4e is gonna suck," "oh I'm gonna hate 4e" and such. These aren't even anxieties anymore: they're just plain and vile direct attacks.