Elves, drawfs, halflings oh my

[NykylaiHellray]

Another part of my "if ravenloft was going to be remade in 4ed" series of posts.

Non human races seem to be like marmite in ravenloft, you either hate them or love them....well more hate, but thats not the point.

If non human races were featured more in ravenloft, how would people want them portrayed.

Personally the elves in discworld and sandman (and books of magic) is how I like my elves. Tricky magical buggers, who are just as likely to help you as slit your throat and throw you to the dogs.

So what are your opinions?

[WolfKook]

Well, I already did a little "tinkering" to the classes in RL, in an article I hope will be published in QtR14, but:

Elves: Establish a clear connection between them and the fey, making them essentially what they are called in the RL PHB: Fey-Touched, mysterious, aloof, and with a sense of wrongness about them. Make the difference between Darkonian and Sithican elves clearer from the beginning, even giving them slightly different stats.

Dwarves: Turn them into RW dwarves.

Gnomes: Get rid of them, or make them a little mischievous and contradictory.

Halflings: Get rid of them (I replaced them with children who were victims of a bogeyman and were deprived of their joy, and unable to grow up... Especially common in Odiare )

Off course, Caliban and Half-Vistani are great as they are. No need to change them.

[NeoTiamat]

I'll admit that I generally stick to vanilla humans with a healthy dose of Domain nationalism, but off the top of my head it'd be a good idea to spread the races out, put them in larger numbers in more places, and treat them more like ethnic groups. Have enclaves of dwarves, elves, and gnomes all over. Humans should still be the majority, but with a 70-80% majority, not a 97% one.

Likewise, there should probably be more domains and more darklords that are demihuman.

There was an excellent series of articles on demihumans in the later QtRs, by the way.

In the end though, I think that in Ravenloft domain-of-origin tends to trump race. As a matter of fact, perhaps replace races entirely with national origins, and have actual in-game differences between humans of different domains? (So a Falkovnian might have Con +2 and Wis -2, for the harsh regime makes them stronger but breaks their spirit, while a Lamordian might have Int +2 and a bonus to saving throws against cold, etc)

Then again, I might have not the foggiest idea what I'm talking about.

[NykylaiHellray]

Actually nationalities would be a cool idea to spice up the various human races. Especially as each may have possibly come from different material planes originally, and have evolved under the influence differently.

For example I guess someone born in sithicus (under that new shadow lady darklord of theres), might be more likely to be a paladin, because of an urge to redeem themselves of there failings.

For elves I want glamour in huge amounts =), with rivers of blood, and odd geographic locations like the realm of faerie in books of magic.

Drawfs, I want makers of wierd and wonderfull artifacts, selling things to those who give the highest offer. Not caring whether they help good or evil, as long as the money is there. Beings who greed has long consumed.
Maybe a darklord drawf who lives deep in the mountains who like the tale (whose name I cant remember) has everything which bares his touch turn into gold, and spits rare gems at regular intervals.


Goblins could take a page out of brian frouds book. Maybe basing them more on the goblins of laberynth.

[Adam]

Wheel of Time's background system offers what I think is the best way to handle the regional thing, with the exception of it being a little lame having your extra human feat taken away at first level to be replaced with a region specific one (it does add a nice bit of flavor, but plays merry havoc with your level progressions if you're trying to build up a certain feat tree or to a prestige class of some kind.)

The races have always been a strange point for me. I haven't used very many demi-humans in my games, but the points of tying the elves more closely to the fey are likely the best way to go with them. The rest are tough to call. The setting really works best with humans.

[Jakob]

Well, I don't see a problem with "fantasy" races, since Ravenloft is a gothic fantasy setting.
I DMed two campaigns with demihumans as-they-are-in-the-RLPHB, and I found no problems in mantaining mistery, horror and dread.

The point is: make the OR work, you'll have no problems. No, really.

EDIT: If I want to play a pure gothic campaign, I play MotRD. If not, leave me with my elves, dwarves and goblins in Ravenloft.

[WolfKook]

Wheel of Time's background system offers what I think is the best way to handle the regional thing, with the exception of it being a little lame having your extra human feat taken away at first level to be replaced with a region specific one (it does add a nice bit of flavor, but plays merry havoc with your level progressions if you're trying to build up a certain feat tree or to a prestige class of some kind.)

Have also done that, based on the particularities portrayed in 2nd Ed. Domains of Dread for characters from different domains (Barovians have to make a Will save to go out at night, Dementlieuse can use firearms as simple/martial weapons), the different backgrounds from Iron Heroes (Artic Born for people of the frozen reaches, Saddleback for the vaasi), regional feats from FR, talents from Arcana Unearthed, and a few additional adjustments to balance it all.

The results have been interesting. It's cool to have characters with different abilities based on their domain of origin, and it gives a rules-based foundation to roleplaying (My barovian defender trying to keep her cool to go out at night, or my falkovnian archanist assisting to a gore scene as if it was perfectly normal).

The races have always been a strange point for me. I haven't used very many demi-humans in my games, but the points of tying the elves more closely to the fey are likely the best way to go with them. The rest are tough to call. The setting really works best with humans.

I do like my take on the dwarves. I have made them as humans suffering from dwarfism. It's mostly a cosmetic change, but gives them a lot of depth, as many dwarves are seen as oddities, or used as buffoons in several courts throughout the core, as happened to historic dwarves. Some dwarves are also the result of abuse, as the dwarves of Temple Falls, who are victims of an evil overseer who forces them to work on the mines for him (Thanks to Jöel for that idea).

[nothri]

Demi-humans should be a part of Ravenloft, because Ravenloft should be a D&D setting. I think the key would be to make the demihumans appropriate to the setting.

1. Demihumans are disenfranchised. There is no homeland for demihumans, merely small communities within existing domains. Pieces of their culture are lost or replaced with existing domain customs. Their languages more closely resemble a pidgin of native tongues and standard D&D race languages. Their role should more closely resemble that of the Moors or gypsies in Victoiran Europe. Their societies have little impact on the human world, and the human world has a significant impact upon them.

2. The demihumans are in decline. It would be wise, I think, to dumb down the more fantastic talents of the demihumans to something a bit more mundane. Don't ignore the more otherwordly aspects of them, but leave those aspects as legends and rumors for the human to whisper about while they point out the weird little man that's come to market. There should be enough room in the setting for the powers of demihumans for the superstitiously inclined (especially if one is in need of a scapegoat) but easy enough to dismiss by all those high minded scientific sorts as purest poppycock. The demihumans should not overshadow the hidden powers of the supernatural. At the same time, they should be aware that their cultures are in decline, that they once were more than they are now. I would suggest that their gods are treated as backward pagan deities of a more ignorant age, and that their lifespans be cut down to more appropriately resemble humans.

[Isabella]

Elves: I actually imagine the elven OR working for them in the Renaissance domains. Oh sure, the superstitious peasants whisper about elfshot and the shadow fey, but all the "enlightened" know that elves are just another race, with nothing mystical about them. But they remember just enough of the legends to give elves a certain allure to them. Everyone would want their own elf. Having an elven mage or performer in your entourage could become a status symbol - not to mention they're probably the best mages and performers around, having practiced for hundreds of years.
Of course, at a certain point stress begins to build up - maybe your wife and servants seem to fancy your elf more than you, or the elven steward knows a little too much more about running the estates than your heir apparent. There are probably elven nobles, but they suffer from the same problems. There might be a higher "accident" rate among the elves in the Renaissance domains.

Elves seem to be unique in that they have a domain they can call home - sure, it sucks and they hate it, but when you walk into the Sithican woods, you know you're in elf country. Would this have any impact on the elves as a whole? There's likely a rift between the Sithican elves and the noble ones that hang out in the Renaissance domains.

Dwarves: Having a Dwarf build your house might be a sign of prestige in Darkon, but that's probably it. I imagine dwarves as part of a declining culture. All their grand cities and strongholds are gone forever - the dwarves "dug too deep" in their greed, as it were, and flooded their mines with shadowy horrors. Their traditions are declining, and the ways of their ancestors are slowly fading as they're assimilated into other cultures.

Halflings: Oddly enough, I consider halflings to be better candidates for humans with dwarfism (despite the name). Since D&D halflings had to move away from hobbits, they haven't had much of a niche. They're pretty much humans... but short. So we might as well make it official.

Gnomes: I'm not sure how gnomes would change - possibly they stay the same, but I imagine some gnomes use their "buffoon" status to take a turn for the nasty. Gnomes don't play their usual jokes on people anymore - if a potion turns someone's face purple and ears green, they're likely to get strung up for it. But if someone poisons the village well, or blows up the parliament building, or uses illusion spells to sneak up to people and slit their throats... well, who's going to suspect the silly little gnome?

I agree that Ravenloft should have demihumans. Strip them out and you get Masque of the Red Death with some place names changed.

[Adam]

Hmm, the elven OR as a good thing wasn't something I had considered. Very cool, especially if what seemed like a good thing initially ("Finally, a village where they're not going to chase me out of town with a pitchfork") turns into an irritance when you realize you're like a zoo animal to these people.

I guess my hang up is figuring out what the other races add to the game, really. It's all well and good to use them, but they don't make the effects of the game any stronger, and can weaken suspension of disbelief (which is so critical with RL) because there aren't as many readily accessible archetypes for them in a horror setting.

[Jester of the FoS]

Well, as anyone who's read QtR recently knows what I'd do for elves, dwarves and halflings already (and if you haven't SHAME for not looking at our wonderful net rag) I'll weigh-in on gnomes.

They really don't have a place in D&D, a good solid role that's different from dwarves. 3E did its best to shake up gnomes, giving them a touch of Dragonlance but it's really not enough.

In Ravenloft I'd play up their legends of hording secrets and give them a reputation for knowing forbidden knowledge and collecting legends. They would be a race of pint-sized philosophers and scientists and thinkers musing on the spiritual as much as the physical.
I'd emphasis their inhuman minds and unusual trains of thought. They'd be rational beings that looks at life and events differently, saw things on a different level or from strange and bizarre angles.

[JinnTolser]

I proposed the idea of different statistics for different nationalities of humans once on the Kargatane board years ago, and it was almost universally rejected. I still think it's a good one, especially with demihumans playing such a small part in canon RL. I wouldn't go as far as to have different ability score adjustments, nor would I want humans' extra bonus feat to be automatic for a given nationality. But perhaps an additional benefit/drawback for each nationality would add some variety.

As for demihumans, I think RL needs to make up its mind one way or the other. As it is, it seems like they're admitted into the setting grudgingly. WIth the exception of Sithicus, they have no place of their own. I don't know of a single domain lord who isn't human. Heck, the only major NPC I can think of that isn't human is Alanik Ray. Either they should be integrated more fully into the setting (though without changing the fact that humans are the majority and the focus), or they should be taken out entirely. Enough sitting on the fence already.

[Jakob]

I'll weigh-in on gnomes.

They really don't have a place in D&D, a good solid role that's different from dwarves. 3E did its best to shake up gnomes, giving them a touch of Dragonlance but it's really not enough.

In Ravenloft I'd play up their legends of hording secrets and give them a reputation for knowing forbidden knowledge and collecting legends. They would be a race of pint-sized philosophers and scientists and thinkers musing on the spiritual as much as the physical.
I'd emphasis their inhuman minds and unusual trains of thought. They'd be rational beings that looks at life and events differently, saw things on a different level or from strange and bizarre angles.

I do not agree. Gnomes are really different from dwarves. They have a natural spellcasting tradition, with even small children being taught to use cantrips (they CAN use them spontaneously, after all), and the 3.5 minor change (with bard as their favored class) make them repository of knowledge, after all... Quite different from dwarves. Theirs, for example, is not a culture obsessed with leaving traces of their passage on earth.

That said, there's one thing I'd stress out: demihumans are exotic, strange, unusual... But what, in my opinion, makes them different from the idealized fey or goblins, is that they are (and should always be treated as) people. It is good the elves are seen closer to spirits of the land and such, but it is important, for a good RL experience, to remember they too use the bathroom (:P). This way, you maximize the impact of the reaction "common people" have to them. This way, a player with a demihuman PC will always feel the need to shout "I'm a person too, you know?". Think about the coming of the second delegation of Native Americans to England (ever read Manituana? you should ): they were treated as exotic pets, to be shown off at parties... But they were PEOPLE.
And I think that "Do your people eat petals to live?" is no different from "Do your people really eat their dead?".

For example, IMC, one of the PC (the niece of Ivana Boritsi, exiled from Borca) is followed by her servant (a middle aged ex-soldier... Nothing incredible, a warrior/expert). She is well educated. He is not. They live in Darkon, now, and the servant is forced to get accustomed to demihumans who walk in the middle of the street or, as with the case of Neblus, control a city. Slowly, he is becoming more "Darkonese" (not to mention his memories being changed... With the player desperately helping him write them down to help him remember...) , and the OR of the people aroud him is slowly... Reducing.

[Isabella]

I proposed the idea of different statistics for different nationalities of humans once on the Kargatane board years ago, and it was almost universally rejected. I still think it's a good one, especially with demihumans playing such a small part in canon RL. I wouldn't go as far as to have different ability score adjustments, nor would I want humans' extra bonus feat to be automatic for a given nationality. But perhaps an additional benefit/drawback for each nationality would add some variety.

There might be some concern about min-maxing, not to mention the tremendous amount of work it would take to make/balance all of that! But it would be interesting.

As for demihumans, I think RL needs to make up its mind one way or the other. As it is, it seems like they're admitted into the setting grudgingly. WIth the exception of Sithicus, they have no place of their own. I don't know of a single domain lord who isn't human.

Easan.

Yes, I realize that's not helping the case for demihumans any.

Some other thoughts:
I feel that the Sithacus Gazeteer did a good job on outlining elves - they're apathetic. They were born with near immortality and know that anything will be undone in a few hundred years. They couldn't care less if humans live or die - it's only a few years difference. Even active elves, like Alanik Ray, might succumb to ennui (like his model, Sherlock Holmes) - he's seen it all before. Few humans or monsters has managed to sufficiently challenge him, and when he defeats them, they're gone for good.

Dwarves might even be more elitist and racist than the elves and humans are. They cling to their crumbling traditions even though all of their strongholds are gone, and their race is dying out. They refuse to let anyone but a dwarf know their secrets. They won't let non-dwarves touch ancestral or well-crafted dwarf weapons, even if that other person really, really needs it.

Gnomes might be obsessed with particular magical or scientific theories. Maybe the only way to gain rank in gnome society is to make some kind of scientific or magical advancement. How they get data is pretty much considered irrelevant.

[Jakob]

I proposed the idea of different statistics for different nationalities of humans once on the Kargatane board years ago, and it was almost universally rejected. I still think it's a good one, especially with demihumans playing such a small part in canon RL. I wouldn't go as far as to have different ability score adjustments, nor would I want humans' extra bonus feat to be automatic for a given nationality. But perhaps an additional benefit/drawback for each nationality would add some variety.

I really do not like the idea. Difference in nationality can be exploited trough skills, feats and good old roleplay, with no need to have "nationality modifiers".
Even in Greyhawk's Player's Guide the different stats for human "races" were absolutely optional.