Is Ravenloft Dead?

DarkDuo · Post by **DarkDuo** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 2:05 pm

OT: To Charney

I like your "signature," since I was one of those people who stayed up til 4 am to watch the funeral of John Paul II and also stayed up again to watch the investiture of the new pope out of respect for the men and the office.

Matthew L. Martin · Post by **Matthew L. Martin** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:25 pm

DarkDuo wrote:Whether or not any line will continue is a question no developer can answer since that depends on so many factors that developers are not aware of nor do they necessarily have access to.

It's one of those topics developers are told not to discuss. We don't make predictions, any of us.

Jackie

So what is the meaning of no Ravenloft products being listed on the schedule for the rest of the year? Editorial error on the part of the Insider, product delays, product cancellations, or something else?

Matthew L. Martin

Jasper · Post by **Jasper** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 5:34 pm

For player friendly books I would like to see the following-

Alak Ray's journal. A series of short stories detailing some of Ray's more spectacular investigations detailing some of the villians who have eluded his grasp. Two appendexs will end the book- 1 for Players detailing the various gadgets and feats used by Ray to do his job as well as a essay on how to use analitical (sp?) method in solving crimes and 2 a DMs listing of NPC stats and what realy went on during each story.

Madam Carlia's Caravan of the mystical and the mundaine. A book in the vein of Aroura's whole realms catalog. It will detail the prices of some of the items you will find every day in the core, from the price of a shipment of cloud wine to the price of renting a bard in Skuld to even a night at the Blood o' the vine in Barovia.

Around the core on 30 silver. A player fiendly Gazetteer knockoff detailing the larger cities of the core. Chock full seedy gosip and local history it will detail in ins and outs of of each city without mentioning any Darklords or using too many new rules. And if we are lucky it will contain a few maps of each city (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!)

Drinnik Shoehorn · Post by **Drinnik Shoehorn** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:03 pm

DarkDuo wrote:After reading all the postings on this topic, I find I have a few things to say.

First, thanks to everyone who understands that both Nicky & I DO support Ravenloft. When we were asked by White Wolf/Arthaus execs to become developers for the line several years ago, we jumped at the chance. It is one of our favorite settings, and our favorite FANTASY setting by a longshot. We care very deeply about what books are published and have fought for some books that otherwise might not have been published.

Prove it.

Sometimes we won and sometimes we didn't. But we have always had the input from the fans in mind -- except that we also include those fans we meet that DON'T post on the Internet.

I agree that Ravenloft has a wider fan base than only the internet posters, but as far as I can see, you haven't posted on the S&S forums, and you haven't been here for months. As Joel said, the Fraternity had to announce the free download of the Gaz V, and they had to announce that there was a web-enhancement for VRGt the Walking Dead, both things which you, as developers, should have announced.

We fought very hard to publish adventures for Ravenloft, since they were for us the biggest asset of the original series. I have always collected modules whenever I could, even if just to read them. Finally, Andrew Bates enjoyed the Dark Tales proposal which came from, I believe, an idea proposed by Ryan Naylor. We saw it as a perfect way to give people adventures without simply publishing a module that would only be used once. We turned it into a handbook on storytelling, a book of fiction, and a collection of modifiable adventures. And we're glad people seemed to like it for the most part.

And I congratulate the book. But I find it hard to believe that the there are any reasons for ending the Gazetteers early, they are, by your own company's website, the best selling Ravenloft products.

Second, any claims we have made that certain kinds of books don't sell have not originated with us but have come from higher ups in Arthaus/White Wolf. The information comes from people who have access to sales figures -- something we don't have at the developer level. We don't make up this info. We pass it on when people want to know why we make certain decisions.

You are lying. I can't remember where, but one of you said that the Gazetteer series is not being continued in the "for-seeable future" because they are not selling well.

Third, ALL our decisions are approved or disapproved at two levels. First, our immediate bosses at Arthaus/White Wolf have to give the okay for us to do each particular book. Second, the material has to be approved at Wizards before it's published. Our usual practice is to send the Arthaus Manager a list of potential books, along with a brief blurb telling what the book is about and why we think it's a good sell. Then we get a reply that tells us what books we CAN publish and what books we need to rethink, put on the back burner or just forget.
We are the DEVELOPERS of the line, not the Managers. We create or solicit outlines for the product, assign authors, try to make sure the text comes in on time, develop the material (which involves putting it all together, adding transitional text when necessary, catching as many mistakes as we can, and sending it to an editor for copy editing and statistics checking before sending it to the Arthaus production staff for layout and production. When it comes back, it's sent to Wizards for their approval. Only then does it go to printing and distribution.

You know, I've read a number of White Wolf books and a metric shed-load of Wizards of the Coast books, they're all excellent quality. Why can't Ravenloft be the same? They might be able to tell you what books to publish and what books you can't, but the text comes to YOU first, YOU are the first people to read it, and if you love Ravenloft as much as you espouse, then you would have rejected the material in Champions of Darkness and not added what you did to the Ravenloft Player's handbook. I personally don't see why you could not simply have reprinted the RCS in 3.5 and added a web-enhancement telling people what has changed. You are saying that there is alot for you to do as developers, here's a hint: STEP DOWN. Let someone else take over, someone who actually cares, not someone who pays lipservice to the fans by saying they do.

Fourth, to those who think we only do this for the money, I have to say you are sorely misled about what kind of money freelance writers and developers make! We get paid in cents per word and make less per word than the writers we hire. As freelancers, we are paid as "work for hire," which means we get no benefits and the only "perks" we get are complimentary copies of the books we publish. Both Nicky & I have day jobs to pay the bills. We work as freelancers because we love to write and we love roleplaying games.

If you truly, truly loved the setting, the money wouldn't matter. John Mangrum checked himself into hospital for exhaustion because of his love of the setting. Are you prepared to make that sort of sacrifice? Are you? If not, I think it is a hideous turn of events to have him be the one who leaves the setting and have two people who claim to love the setting in control. Not to put words into his mouth, and if I am, I am sorry John, but let him and others take control of the setting, I'm sure they would jump at the chance.

Fifth, though many if not most of you miss the Kargatane and their involvement in Ravenloft, we parted ways with them a couple of years ago for reasons I choose not to go into here, except to say that we are not the vile incompetent villains some people think we are. It was not our decision to split with them as a group, and one of their number still writes for us (see Dark Tales and Disturbing Legends).

Bravo to Ryan for mentioning such an idea for an excellent book. And it is no secret why the Kargatane quit. If anyone read the websites (here, S&S's site and the WotC messageboards) they understand why the K quit. They did not like the direction the setting was taking. They didn't like the fact that continuity wasn't being considered. The information in the quite frankly awful Champions of Darkness completely contridicted the previously released title, The Gazetteer Vol. I. They felt that Ravenloft was being mishandled by S&S. And I for one agree. Books like CoD, HoL and RPHB seemed rushed and half-heartedly edited. The editing work on Masque of the Red Death is horrible, and detracts from a solid book. If you where doing your jobs, like you say you are, these problems wouldn't exist. And I won't accept the excuse "errors are bound to creep in" because they are, but not the amount that riddle Masque of the Red Death.

Sixth, of course we take credit for jobs well done -- because we played a part in it. We do not, and never have, taken all the credit. We know that the authors and artists do the bulk of the work and we have never (to my knowledge) failed to mention that fact. But we do acknowledge our part in a job well done.
And not only do we take the blame for books that drew criticism, we usually have gotten pretty well slammed by the posters for what they consider our mistakes. We don't have to "take" the blame, it's pretty much dumped on us anyway!

I'll agree again, you do give kudos to authors and artists, but you do only seem to accept compliments on books that are well recieved. On books that aren't (once again I must turn to CoD and the "additions" to the RCS in the RPHB) you quickly say "Oh, they're optional rules and are to be used by DMs who want to use them." With Champions of Darkness in my hand, I cannot see anywhere in the introduction the words "These rules are optional" or words to that effect. The flak will fall on you. But when CoD came out, I was equally as harsh on the authors, particularly Tadd McDivvitt, and he and I discussed privately my personal gripes with the book over Private Messages on the old Kargatane boards. You two, however, do distance yourselves from failed products.

Seventh, and finally, we don't play Ravenloft so much as we run it. We've run it at conventions and we've run it at our gaming club. We don't have a lot of time for gaming, however, since we have day jobs, our freelancing (which is another full time job) and a household to run. We've finally talked one of our friends into running MotRD for us at some future time, but that hasn't materialized yet. Do we play other games than Ravenloft? Yes, because our friends who run those games have other interests besides the Dread Realms. Would we play Ravenloft if someone asked us to? Darn straight we would!

Well good for you, you've got someone to run you a Masque game. Perhaps reading the book will allow you to see the faults you should have seen when the document was handed to you in rough form.

Sorry for such a long post, but I feel some issues had to be addressed.

If you criticize us, please please make your statements true. Don't say we don't love the game. We do. Don't say we're incompetent. We aren't. Don't call us evil. We aren't. Don't say we don't care about the fans. We do.

If you love the game, PROVE IT. If you want people like me not to call your compatence in to question, PROVE IT. If you want people like me to say you do care about the fans, PROVE IT.

Thanks,

Jackie Cassada
Ravenloft co-developer (along with Nicky Rea)

Thank you.

Joël of the FoS · Post by **Joël of the FoS** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 7:49 pm

Drinnik, please remember that flaming isn't allowed here. Your tone in the last message is often on the gray zone, it's quite aggressive, no?

As much as any other, I'd like to know more on the people involved in the Ravenloft line, but I'd prefer this discussion to stay within politeness.

Thanks,

Joël

Igor the Henchman · Post by **Igor the Henchman** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:03 pm

Hmmm. I don't want to try and make discipline, I think the Frat will handle it as soon enough.

About this, though, if I may:

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote:

Not to put words into his mouth, and if I am, I am sorry John, but let him and others take control of the setting, I'm sure they would jump at the chance.

I'm not so sure they would. From what I remember, John quit his Kargatane position once or twice even before the S&S showed its nose. I also never remember him saying he found working on Ravenloft a rewarding experience... Quite the opposite, rather. I remember John growing more frustrated with Ravenloft by the day while he was working on the line... And the reasons he sited weren't the developers. It was... ah... fan attitude.

Drinnik Shoehorn · Post by **Drinnik Shoehorn** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 8:53 pm

Joël of the Fraternity wrote:Drinnik, please remember that flaming isn't allowed here. Your tone in the last message is often on the gray zone, it's quite aggressive, no?

As much as any other, I'd like to know more on the people involved in the Ravenloft line, but I'd prefer this discussion to stay within politeness.

Thanks,

Joël

Sorry. If my tone is too harsh, I apologise.

But my sentiments still stand.

midnightcat · Post by **midnightcat** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:05 pm

Drinnik Shoehorn, I went to the Dragonlance site, that you suggested was doing a better job with Dragonlance, then White Wolf was with Ravenloft. IMO both companies are doing a good job with both setting. Here is a list of books for both.

Dragonlance:
Modules: Key of Destiny, Spectre of sorrow, and prince of courage.

Books that update the Dragonlance setting: Age of mortals, Bestiary of Kryn, Towes of high sorcery, and Holy order of stars.

Books that update classics: War of the lance Campaign, Legends of the Twins, and Dragons of Autumn.

They do have a 12 page map book, but it $15. Only the hardbound books are in color, and they cost from $35 to $45.

Ravenloft:
The Main setting books: Ravenloft: Campaign setting, Denziens of Dread, Ravenloft DM book, Secerets of the Dread realm.

Gazatteers: Gaz1, Gaz2, Gaz 3, Gaz 4, and Gaz 5.

Van Richten Books: Van Richten Guide to Walking Dead, Van Richten Guiide to the Fey, and Van Richten guide to the mist.

Others: Champions of Darkness, Heroes of Light, Van Richten Arsenal, Legacy of Blood, and Dark Tales and Disturbing Legends.

Masgue of the Red Death campaign book

Yes White Wolf's Ravenloft books are in Black and white, but I think that is to keep the cost down. Color books tend to cost 34.95 or higher. I don't know about you but I prefer to save some money then have a book in color.

I have said this before in the past, We as fans are lucky to have Ravenloft in 3rd edition. Unlike Dragoonlance, Ravenloft didn't come form a setting that produced a ton of bestselling books for TSR and now WOTC. The setting lost money for TSR and wasn't that popular as Forgotten realms, and as I said it didn't have Bestselling books that helped draw attention to itself, like Dragonlance. All the other setting like Ravenloft don't exsist anymore, even Greyhawk, the setting that started it all. We are lucky that white wolf wanted to publish the setting.

Drinnik Shoehorn · Post by **Drinnik Shoehorn** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:08 pm

I'm not talking about the quality of the books, I'm talking about the quality of care to the fanbase.

midnightcat wrote:Drinnik Shoehorn, I went to the Dragonlance site, that you suggested was doing a better job with Dragonlance, then White Wolf was with Ravenloft. IMO both companies are doing a good job with both setting. Here is a list of books for both.

Yes, but did you know that Soverign Press will get the author to sign your book for you if you order directly from them and you can get it personalised (Trebor has a copy of Tas' Map Pouch signed by Margaret Weis that says "To Matt, may dragons forever fly in your dreams, Margaret")? Or that when the American post office bent aload of books that clearly had "Do Not Bend" printed on them the company said that they would send replacement copies at no cost?

Soverign Press is a third party company much the same as Arthaus. SP is more dedicated to its fanbase, on and offline than any other company I've seen. Yes, Margaret Weis has probably made enough money of her novels that she can spend more time on the products than Ms Cassada and Ms Rea, but some (if not all) of the Ravenloft authors have full time jobs, yet still find time to post here or on one of the other messageboards.

Mangrum · Post by **Mangrum** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:20 pm

Igor the Henchman wrote:I'm not so sure they would. From what I remember, John quit his Kargatane position once or twice even before the S&S showed its nose. I also never remember him saying he found working on Ravenloft a rewarding experience... Quite the opposite, rather. I remember John growing more frustrated with Ravenloft by the day while he was working on the line... And the reasons he sited weren't the developers. It was... ah... fan attitude.

It was a combination of lots of things, not least my overly obsessive nature (that's how I ended up in the ER that one time -- I was so myopic about a deadline and my work that I neglected my health and had a fainting spell).

Suffice to say that in all honesty, I should have walked away from professional writing a solid year before I did. That last year was, to borrow a line from Aliens, "just grinding the gears."

These days, I'm really not interested in writing professionally, at all. I was offered some Dragon gigs, and just couldn't build up the motivation to take the offer. Of course, getting double-teamed by a pair of one's former role models also tends to dent the ol' morale.

Steve Miller · Post by **Steve Miller** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:33 pm

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote: If you love the game, PROVE IT. If you want people like me not to call your compatence in to question, PROVE IT. If you want people like me to say you do care about the fans, PROVE IT.

I think it's long since gotten past the point where they owe you anything, proof or common courtsey.

Joël of the FoS · Post by **Joël of the FoS** » Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:39 pm

Drinnik Shoehorn wrote: Sorry. If my tone is too harsh, I apologise.

Thanks for your understanding. A discussion can be somewhat heated, or vigorous, but still it's best to stay on the polite side.

Mangrum wrote: These days, I'm really not interested in writing professionally, at all. I was offered some Dragon gigs, and just couldn't build up the motivation to take the offer.

Bad news for the RPG industry. Hopefully, you'll get the peace of mind needed in the future.

Joël

ScS of the Fraternity · Mon Jun 06, 2005 9:54 pm

Steve Miller wrote:I think it's long since gotten past the point where they owe you anything, proof or common courtsey.

Okay, let's just keep it civil. No reason to throw gas on a fire that no one wants burning in the first place.

DarkDuo · Post by **DarkDuo** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 12:57 am

To Steve: thanks for the kind words and the support.

To Drinnik Shoehorn: It will probably be a long time before I post on this board again. While I have had good reason to do so, I have never called any professional writer a liar or incompetent.

To the rest of you: Thank you for continuing to support Ravenloft. I have answered your posts honestly and tried to stay within the bounds of professional courtesy when attacked. I will continue to check the boards off and on but I generally don't post because these boards are fan forums, not a developer podium.

Besides, it seems pointless to reply when my words are only used as ammunition by those who will never be convinced regardless of what I say or do.

Sincerely,
Jackie Cassada

Ultramyth · Post by **Ultramyth** » Tue Jun 07, 2005 3:18 am

I positively loved the most recent additions to the Ravenloft line. I honestly think that the newer writers have come a long way from COD and other products some of the fans will tear apart quite adamantly.

I've self published two books from the ground up, one of which is only in print. As writer, artist and one of the editors, it's a hell of a lot of work. I learnt so much from my first book that I delayed the writing of my second for almost a year and even considered rewriting it because I was no longer happy with the quality of the product.

I was lucky. Because I had all of the control, and my second book I was immensely proud of.

I have no doubt, that some writers might be unhappy with their editors or bosses decisions. Time can be an issue. I didn't have any deadlines to deal with but I still felt the pressure, and do not underestimate the effects of fans, especially flame posts, on the minds of writers. Often it takes only one unhappy person. Writers want to please the fanbase, really, they do. It is no easy job, and they make squat. There is NO money for writers in the RPG business. I think it's completely unfair to say that if you won't work for free on Ravenloft, you don't love it enough.

As to comments made earlier about the inconstancies in the books, especially regarding continuity, well, has that not been a problem since the very begining anyway? Shouldn't really those in charge be to blame? They're the ones that approve or disprove products. They should have caught it.

Ravenloft is special. It takes more than just informaiton to content its fanbase. Ravenloft is all about flavour and atmosphere, which sometimes can be difficult to write. There is no doubt in my mind that the current writers realise this.

A final note, I think it's wonderful that so many current and former writers on the line do come and speak here about their experiences. The Fraternity has far more than even the great Kargatane had to offer to the fans, and I feel this is in part because there is some form of communication coming from the writers and artists back to us. I love reading the notes on the various products and getting into the heads of the writers. I see passion and love there, no matter what Herr Shoehorn might have to say.

Café de Nuit

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Is Ravenloft Dead?