Ravenloft is back in 5e?

[Five]

I still feel the urge to point out that the changes made to this book do what no other new edition of a setting has done and made all the previously established lore invalid to feed the ego of the talentless.

Could it be an IP issue? 3E wasn't Wizard homebrew (though it was still "official"). Could they be going extremely overboard, and in such a petty way, by hand-waving it all away? Could it be a legal (warning) line that they want to stay well back from?

Was any other D&D setting "(rented)" out like Ravenloft was?

Don't make it right, given the fan support of that material and the talent of the crew behind it all, but could that be it in a nutshell?

We'll see soon enough the talent behind this new version. I'm sure that won't be an issue; any issues from the reception of VRGtR will no doubt be based almost exclusively on the handling of a decades-long, multi-generational fan favorite (and heavily invested) setting and its new official direction.

Official outside of our personal tables, and outside of what we have, for the most part, glued our minds to.

[Igor the Henchman]

Now, I never saw the unedited version of Ewan’s final response,

I did. It was disgusting.

On the main topic, I was initially delighted by the announcement, but now I'm like on an emotional roller-coaster of joy and trepidation while I wait for the book. On the face of it, they seem to be doing what I've always thought the setting needs: a do-over to make it more enjoyable to fans of mainstream D&D. But then I start thinking... what if it turns out bad? And I get all these flashbacks to Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, and the Book of Crypts and that first chapter in Dark Tales and Disturbing Legends and I remember that Ravenloft's history is full of times where seasoned game designers seemed to say "Writing Ravenloft content? Nothing to it! Hold my beer!"

But then I remember that Wizards haven't disappointed me yet in 5E, and that they do a lot of playtesting these days and that the tremendous success of Curse of Strahd gives them pressure to release a genuinely good and enjoyable setting. And that calms me down. For a time.

I really hope Wizards maybe releases a preview of one of the domains, so I can make up my mind on how to feel. I didn't think that a promise of a new official Ravenloft book would feel so meaningful to me after all those years, but it does.

[Mistmaster]

Though I can't help but believe that the breakup of the Core is expressly due to the idea that once you're in Barovia, you really can't leave Barovia (at least not without beating or bargaining with Strahd), as employed in CoS. I never played 2E / 3E, but the lore suggests crossing from one domain into an adjacent one wasn't by any means difficult. Hard to keep CoS players in Barovia if they can just tiptoe into another domain. So that's probably the main reason they decided to break up the Core. Not that this fouls up the plans for my particular campaign anyway.i

Actually Barovia was one of the only domains whose borders were always closed by Strahds poisoning fog as is the Village of Barovia. Whoever travels through Barovia (merchants, charlatans, a travelling circus, adventurers etc) must contact the Vistani to get the antidote, from a bargain they had when this mystical people entered the Land of Mists. So Barovia was always closed to the world around it thus Brovians are xenophopic. They are isolated by the Darklord's mentality, similar to if I am a prisoner so are my subjects, and their own fear of strangers. By the use of the poisoning fog he has control and information of who enters or leaves Barovia. Strahd is a total control freak as well as Azalin, Von Kharkov, D'Honaire and most other domain lords.

Not in my Mistworld, at least, not in the current incarnation. Strahd XII knows the importance of trading and diplomatic relationship.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

I still feel the urge to point out that the changes made to this book do what no other new edition of a setting has done and made all the previously established lore invalid to feed the ego of the talentless.

Could it be an IP issue? 3E wasn't Wizard homebrew (though it was still "official"). Could they be going extremely overboard, and in such a petty way, by hand-waving it all away? Could it be a legal (warning) line that they want to stay well back from?

Was any other D&D setting "(rented)" out like Ravenloft was?

Don't make it right, given the fan support of that material and the talent of the crew behind it all, but could that be it in a nutshell?

We'll see soon enough the talent behind this new version. I'm sure that won't be an issue; any issues from the reception of VRGtR will no doubt be based almost exclusively on the handling of a decades-long, multi-generational fan favorite (and heavily invested) setting and its new official direction.

Official outside of our personal tables, and outside of what we have, for the most part, glued our minds to.

I doubt it. What the 3rd/3.5 books did is expand on the what had already came. WotC own all that.

What we’re seeing here is what is happening to comics. People with no talent changing existing characters for no other reason than they know anything they come up with will be unpopular.

I have very little faith in this book, particularly when I found out Jessica Price was involved, a woman fired for not being particularly good at her job and said it was because she was a woman.

https://medium.com/@ColedOne/jessica-pr ... 43ee8ffe43

Make no mistake, this isn’t like the Kargatane taking over the reigns, this is like letting GCSE English students taking the reigns.

Edit: Almost forgot, she celebrated TotalBiscuit’s cancer

[Five]

Though I can't help but believe that the breakup of the Core is expressly due to the idea that once you're in Barovia, you really can't leave Barovia (at least not without beating or bargaining with Strahd), as employed in CoS. I never played 2E / 3E, but the lore suggests crossing from one domain into an adjacent one wasn't by any means difficult. Hard to keep CoS players in Barovia if they can just tiptoe into another domain. So that's probably the main reason they decided to break up the Core. Not that this fouls up the plans for my particular campaign anyway.i

Actually Barovia was one of the only domains whose borders were always closed by Strahds poisoning fog as is the Village of Barovia. Whoever travels through Barovia (merchants, charlatans, a travelling circus, adventurers etc) must contact the Vistani to get the antidote, from a bargain they had when this mystical people entered the Land of Mists. So Barovia was always closed to the world around it thus Brovians are xenophopic. They are isolated by the Darklord's mentality, similar to if I am a prisoner so are my subjects, and their own fear of strangers. By the use of the poisoning fog he has control and information of who enters or leaves Barovia. Strahd is a total control freak as well as Azalin, Von Kharkov, D'Honaire and most other domain lords.

Not in my Mistworld, at least, not in the current incarnation. Strahd XII knows the importance of trading and diplomatic relationship.

For me, it's reasoning like that that always had me feel like the closing of the borders was a bit of a flat idea. Especially in 3E where the Core was, by necessity, so dependant on trade. No trade, no power, or exotic flavours. No exotic flavours, no distraction from prison sentence. Etc. And the ways in which all but Falkovnia are closed are so fantastical (even that, an ultra-quuck mobilisation of forces that physically bars exit is far-fetched) that in-universe merchants and their border runners would be so tripped out in crossing that trade couldn't possibly be anywhere near what it is said to be. A closure that applied to individual realities, with individually lethal consequences yes. I could see. Maybe. Yet that implies a high level of intimacy with the dark lords.

With the Black Box it made a bit more sense, but even there it was...off. If your PCs are the type to run away from fear and horror (actually run away, not temporarily retreat to gather their wits and nerve) and you as a DM need to lock them in time and time again then Ravenloft just isn't the best setting for your table. As a detached or floating nightmare (making the idea of a core just about ridiculous), or, pseudo reality, then yes. It makes sense. Otherwise, unless the PCs always personally catch the attention of the dark lords to the point of them actually gunning for their skulls (or souls), then it's just a crappy end of the sandbox after the first closure. Ravenloft is then limited to that of Creature Feature. Cool in one sense, but boring in another.

Obviously the idea works for others. And maybe my brain is too small to actually find value in it, but thst's how I feel. Generally-speaking.

[Resonant Curse]

I still feel the urge to point out that the changes made to this book do what no other new edition of a setting has done and made all the previously established lore invalid to feed the ego of the talentless.

Could it be an IP issue? 3E wasn't Wizard homebrew (though it was still "official"). Could they be going extremely overboard, and in such a petty way, by hand-waving it all away? Could it be a legal (warning) line that they want to stay well back from?

Was any other D&D setting "(rented)" out like Ravenloft was?

Don't make it right, given the fan support of that material and the talent of the crew behind it all, but could that be it in a nutshell?

We'll see soon enough the talent behind this new version. I'm sure that won't be an issue; any issues from the reception of VRGtR will no doubt be based almost exclusively on the handling of a decades-long, multi-generational fan favorite (and heavily invested) setting and its new official direction.

Official outside of our personal tables, and outside of what we have, for the most part, glued our minds to.

Kingdoms of Kalamar, Legend of the Five Rings (Oriental Adventures setting for 3rd), and Dragonlance all had a core book released by Wizards of the coast and were then continued by a 3rd party.

[Five]

Kingdoms of Kalamar, Legend of the Five Rings (Oriental Adventures setting for 3rd), and Dragonlance all had a core book released by Wizards of the coast and were then continued by a 3rd party.

With the current hype around Dragonlance then I expect to see changes there too that will raise a cry of alarm/concern amongst its fans.

Though, Dragonlance as a setting, as far as I'm aware (never really cared for it much personally), isn't half as malleable as Ravenloft is. Ravenloft, given it's various incarnations, does open itself up to more creative input; change, depending on what model is being broken down and resculpted.

Meh. The presentation will be what it will be. I'm going to be doing my own resculpturing regardless of what's in the book, depending on how inspiring the potentials are inside it. It's the nature of the beast.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Kingdoms of Kalamar, Legend of the Five Rings (Oriental Adventures setting for 3rd), and Dragonlance all had a core book released by Wizards of the coast and were then continued by a 3rd party.

With the current hype around Dragonlance then I expect to see changes there too that will raise a cry of alarm/concern amongst its fans.

Though, Dragonlance as a setting, as far as I'm aware (never really cared for it much personally), isn't half as malleable as Ravenloft is. Ravenloft, given it's various incarnations, does open itself up to more creative input; change, depending on what model is being broken down and resculpted.

Meh. The presentation will be what it will be. I'm going to be doing my own resculpturing regardless of what's in the book, depending on how inspiring the potentials are inside it. It's the nature of the beast.

But you should not be buying a book for an established setting going in knowing you’re going to have to change stuff from inside it to fit established canon from previous editions. Change it because it doesn’t fit your canon is fine, but when you have to change it to fit established canon it shows a lack of respect for the source material and a lack of confidence or ability in the new authors.

[Five]

I have very little faith in this book, particularly when I found out Jessica Price was involved, a woman fired for not being particularly good at her job and said it was because she was a woman.

https://medium.com/@ColedOne/jessica-pr ... 43ee8ffe43

Make no mistake, this isn’t like the Kargatane taking over the reigns, this is like letting GCSE English students taking the reigns.

Edit: Almost forgot, she celebrated TotalBiscuit’s cancer

Sounds like a lovely creature...haha

[Joël of the FoS]

Since some asked for explanations and clarity, a few more things, then we close this file.

Now, I never saw the unedited version of Ewan’s final response,

I did. It was disgusting.

That's the main point for the temporary ban, not the heated discussion itself.

It's not the first time we have a heated discussion here, as you all know. But when insults flies, we intervene as it is not accepted. Like Five, I don't see in Jester's what made him that angry. But I do not have Ewan's personal background.

That said, posting insults when angry isn't the way to go. Explaining his perceived disagreement (what made him angry, or asking for explanation) would have been more interesting, as discussion would have continued with civility.

He decided to leave the FoS (his choice) but in doing so, he did throw these mean insults (and added nasty comments in his profile, which comments I deleted) Seeing that, we locked him out, a temporary ban (May 1st). We appreciate his contribution here and we hope he calms down and gets back in a better mood.

For the record, he would have said that to a non-mod and would have got the same treatment.

See the FoS boards rules #2 and especially #1.

-------------------------------------

Now back to the discussion...

[Joël of the FoS]

But you should not be buying a book for an established setting going in knowing you’re going to have to change stuff from inside it to fit established canon from previous editions. Change it because it doesn’t fit your canon is fine, but when you have to change it to fit established canon it shows a lack of respect for the source material and a lack of confidence or ability in the new authors.

I hear you, but I think you are too extreme in your conclusions They wanted a reboot, and did it. OK, so be it. Their choice. Since RL isn't a major universe in D&D, this will only make us angry. We're not that many compared to all D&D players. This kind of reboot happens every year in the comic universe, some people are angry, but most of the time more people like it.

But it will bring new people to RL, people who started D&D with 5e. It will bring here more people, as CoS did. Some of these, like onmyoji, will want more. We'll be there for them.

Knowing what is coming, you have the choice to buy it or not. I will (now which version, the gamestore one or the regular? Mmmm...)

If you are a 3.5 grognard, think of the new RL as an alternative version, like reading a new steampunk version of Alice in Wonderland for example (or Alyss for those who read French).

That's how I see it, I'll read it to find ideas. If they are now all islands in the mists, the better as it is easier to add to an ongoing campaign. If I want to add a zombie invasion domain, I'll change the name from Falkovnia to something else. Or I could keep the name and make links with 3e Falkovnia and explain why there is another version of Falkovnia floating in the mists, that could make great adventure hooks too.

[Five]

Kingdoms of Kalamar, Legend of the Five Rings (Oriental Adventures setting for 3rd), and Dragonlance all had a core book released by Wizards of the coast and were then continued by a 3rd party.

With the current hype around Dragonlance then I expect to see changes there too that will raise a cry of alarm/concern amongst its fans.

Though, Dragonlance as a setting, as far as I'm aware (never really cared for it much personally), isn't half as malleable as Ravenloft is. Ravenloft, given it's various incarnations, does open itself up to more creative input; change, depending on what model is being broken down and resculpted.

Meh. The presentation will be what it will be. I'm going to be doing my own resculpturing regardless of what's in the book, depending on how inspiring the potentials are inside it. It's the nature of the beast.

But you should not be buying a book for an established setting going in knowing you’re going to have to change stuff from inside it to fit established canon from previous editions. Change it because it doesn’t fit your canon is fine, but when you have to change it to fit established canon it shows a lack of respect for the source material and a lack of confidence or ability in the new authors.

I go into D&D core rulebooks knowing that I'm going to be tinkering with things to better suit my imagination and the imaginations of those I play with. And they for me.

Canon is not a thing that belongs in rpgs in my mind, for the simple fact that our story is our story and that story supersedes all others. I'm not saying that other tables are somehow less. Their stories no doubt supersedes ours (especially if they are the ones putting words to print). It's what Dungeons and Dragons is. A toolbox to build things out of. Settings are provided as showhomes of a sort, and if I like the look of a particular room or feature then I cop it but apply my own touches. Paint, trim, whatever. It then becomes my home. If people want to hang out when it's ready then right on. Crack one and have seat. If not, then oh well. Best of luck to you and yours.

And if I really want, and have the time and proper tools to do so, I'll build a home from the ground up. Like I have in the past. In fact, I think it should be mandatory for every edition to have a fourth core rulebook: Worldbuilder's Guide. I understand they want to hook players for their wallets (I grew up in the 80's and get the pusher game haha) but still. Encouraging imagination to that point is the best customer investment a rpg company can show, as far as I'm concerned. A product push and potential recruitment tool for future QA/QC.

Showing support to those developers that you consider popeish (I don't mean that in a negative; lack of better term is all) is noble and admirable. Honour them by keeping their vision in play. As long as you and your table are still getting quality milage from it it's a damn good thing. I just happen to like seeing what's out there that might be sticky enough to latch onto my brain and see what it might evolve into. Sometimes it's barely even recognisable. Kinda like surfing the 'net. Look up folklore and end up stuck in quantum physics. ..haha

[Thrackazoggg]

I'm pretty surprised about how negative the overall response to the announcement has been: Good or bad, it rejuvenates this very community here, and it gives the setting another twenty years of lifespan, if we're lucky. Like, to put this in perspective: If you started playing with the "Realm of Terror" boxed set, you're at least between 40 and 50 years old. If you started with the the Kargatane, and their first forays into 3rd edition, like Yours Truly did - that was well about twenty years ago, fam.

Now, that this long-rumored new edition wouldn't be "classic" Ravenloft, that should have been clear to anyone who read CoS. I doubt it's a bad thing, though - like the first few RL adventures back in the 1990s, this looks like it will be a lot about testing new concepts. If the old RL is any indicator, at all, then we're going to see a lot of fluctuation among the stuff that fans don't like, in the years to come. Like, that female Drakova, she better be interesting.

Again, that's why I think there will be a notable difference between the setting as presented, and the setting as played: I've looked into some old Dungeon Mag adventures, "The Price of Revenge" and "The Lady of Mists", recently. They are presented as pretty basic D&D-ish romps, really. Except that, because of the horror background, noone with an adult's, and an adult storyteller's perspective, is going to run them as written - and THAT's what makes them great, to this day.

That's why I expect modern Ravenloft to take a grittier, more fan-pleasing turn as soon as the corporate lions feel like they've done their duty. Who knows, maybe even some of the old Kargat, or of the Kargatane can be lured into penning a new adventure, if the new setting is a success? - Like, about Vlada Drakova being disposed by her vampiric cousin... Vlad...

Been away from these boards for an incredibly long time - easily 12 years - but wanted to see what was happening with the announcement of the new book.

I think this really hits the nail on the head. The setting is evolving, and in doing so, it lives on. What's better is it gives potentially new life to fan sites like these that have survived well past Secrets of the Kargatane or the Lonesome Road. I'm not particularly a fan of the idea of breaking up the Core into multiple islands, but as someone pointed out, it also allows for fantastic re-configurations of the Core too. The islands could literally "float" anywhere now. In addition, we'll get some great new Ravenloft art - something that I always felt was missing from the 3e/White Wolf efforts.

Rather than bashing the creators of the new work (and really, saying Jessica Price or F. Wesley Schneider are talentless speaks volumes about the source), maybe look at the work that's been done with a critical eye and think about what does need to change - and then post that stuff out there! Maybe publish it on DMSGuild?

[Igor the Henchman]

The setting is evolving, and in doing so, it lives on. What's better is it gives potentially new life to fan sites like these that have survived well past Secrets of the Kargatane or the Lonesome Road. I'm not particularly a fan of the idea of breaking up the Core into multiple islands, but as someone pointed out, it also allows for fantastic re-configurations of the Core too. The islands could literally "float" anywhere now. In addition, we'll get some great new Ravenloft art - something that I always felt was missing from the 3e/White Wolf efforts.

Rather than bashing the creators of the new work (and really, saying Jessica Price or F. Wesley Schneider are talentless speaks volumes about the source), maybe look at the work that's been done with a critical eye and think about what does need to change - and then post that stuff out there! Maybe publish it on DMSGuild?

I'm in complete agreement with this. Good way of putting it.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

MOD NOTE: Welcome back, Thrackazoggg, but please refrain from flames toward other posters. (referring specifically towards "speaks volumes about the source"). We've recently had some unpleasantness in the "personal attack" space and I don't want have it flare up again. Consider this a gentle warning.