A Twist in the Mist: an M Night Shayamalan spin on Ravenloft

[JinnTolser]

Hi! I haven't been back to FoS in quite awhile since I've not been gaming much, and not in the Land of Mists when I do. But today I had an idea about Ravenloft that I'd like to explore, perhaps even turn into a campaign down the line. I haven't run RL in many years, and haven't kept up with any developments in the setting since the 3rd edition line ended.

The idea I had today revolves around Lemot Sediam Juste. He's a fairly obscure character but I'm sure most people here know who he is. For anyone who might not: he's a playwright who is cursed because he burned a theater to the ground when an audience laughed at one of his plays that was supposed to be a tragedy. He now controls a theater called Scaena that can appear inside other lands. Within that theater, his powers of illusion are unmatched, and he can put people through whatever stories he can dream up. He can meld into any wooden surface in the theater and emerge elsewhere, or he can burn the entire place down (remaining untouched by the flames) and then reform it. In other words, within his theater he's extremely dangerous.

What I want to do is use Mr. Juste to tell stories of other places and characters from this setting, with an M. Night Shyamalan-style twist. For example, he might put a party of adventurers through the scenario of 3e's Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, only for the party to discover at the end that Strahd is not evil, in fact not a vampire at all, and that the Vistani fortune teller who sends them on the quest is actually the real vampire.

And now I come to the true purpose of this topic: I want to ask you guys, how else could you pull a Shyamalan-style "what a tweest!" plot reveal by twisting around the canon characters, settings, or other features of this setting? I realize that this has potential for humor and I'm okay with that, but I'm also looking for ideas that I might actually be able to turn into a somewhat serious adventure too.

[JinnTolser]

Apologies for the double post. While it doesn't seem to be against forum rules, I know it's not really kosher. But I thought it better to put this here instead of editing it into the original post.

One main reason I want to explore this idea is because I've found that the unknown is very important when trying to cultivate a horror atmosphere. Since I've gamed with several of the same players for 10+ years, and many of them are also DMs, the majority of my gaming group buddies know the major points of Ravenloft lore as well as I do. Everybody in my group knows that Strahd is a vampire, Azalin is a lich, the ins and outs of their curses and the fact that they don't like each other. They know that openly using magic in Tepest or Nova Vaasa is a good way to get a mob on your heels, complete with pitchforks and torches. They know how Fear, Horror, and Madness rolls and Powers checks work (in 3.5, our edition of choice).

The downside to this is that it's very hard to scare or surprise them when it comes to anything but the most obscure Ravenloft characters and places. My idea here with Lemot Sediam Juste (whom most of them aren't that familiar with) is that I can turn my players' expectations on their head without having to rewrite the setting canon to do so. The "real" Strahd might still be a vampire, but when Juste is writing the story he can be a dancing bear in a clown costume if that's what the playwright wants (a dancing bear in a clown costume isn't what he wants, but you get the idea ).

This could inject new life into the setting for my current gaming group, and let me surprise my players by showing them that what they think they know isn't necessarily the case. However, I could use some help brainstorming the actual twists, hence this topic.

[Hazgarn]

I've had a similar idea for Juste in mind for a while.

I was thinking of using him to introduce the characters to Toben the Many, with the infected orphanage from VRGttWD as the setting. From there, Juste runs them through Toben's worst-possible-case scenario of a full-blown, maniacal sentient zombie apocalypse sweeping the Core before pulling the rug out from under the players to reveal that this epic destruction only ever happened on stage.

The eventual plan would be to have them meet the real Toben later in a few "harmless" encounters, hopefully terrified (Juste's version of Toben might not be as "whimsical" as the real thing). The endgame would involve him requiring their help in recovering one of his bodies from Kargat operatives intending to take it into Darkon, with Toben threatening to spread himself in a pandemic across the demiplane in self defense (leveraging a bodycount greater than the Kargat could hope to infect within in Darkon) should the he wind up in Azalin's clutches.

(Rendering Juste's play unintentionally prophetic.)

[Dark Angel]

I have thought about doing something like this to fill in the details of the history of a location or an 'older' adventure that the players cannot canonically be a part of (post grand conjunction, etc.). I do like the idea of screwing with the players (mine sound a lot like yours) and creating false sense of how things are and should be. Unfortunately, any thing similar to what you describe is potentially going to fail as my group knows who is what in Ravenloft (Strahd is a vampire, Azalin lich, Soth death knight, and so on). But knowing your group, you would have an idea of their knowledge and plant a completely false concept in their heads (the Hags of Tempest cannot harm you if you are not a threat! Lay down your arms and they pass right through you!) of something they just don't know back and forth (it got so bad they could tell me how to get to Strahd's treasury from the front door without a map). The other downside is this could only (reasonably) be used once, but (if set up right) could be a major storytelling asset. Or get you a TPK.

D

[JinnTolser]

I have thought about doing something like this to fill in the details of the history of a location or an 'older' adventure that the players cannot canonically be a part of (post grand conjunction, etc.). I do like the idea of screwing with the players (mine sound a lot like yours) and creating false sense of how things are and should be. Unfortunately, any thing similar to what you describe is potentially going to fail as my group knows who is what in Ravenloft (Strahd is a vampire, Azalin lich, Soth death knight, and so on). But knowing your group, you would have an idea of their knowledge and plant a completely false concept in their heads (the Hags of Tempest cannot harm you if you are not a threat! Lay down your arms and they pass right through you!) of something they just don't know back and forth (it got so bad they could tell me how to get to Strahd's treasury from the front door without a map). The other downside is this could only (reasonably) be used once, but (if set up right) could be a major storytelling asset. Or get you a TPK.

D

My group knows these things too. That's half the point of what I'm getting at, though. When Juste is writing the story, Strahd doesn't have to be a vampire at all - maybe he's a fallen angel or he's possessed by a demon, or maybe he's actually a hero because his brother was the real monster. Maybe Juste's Azalin's is not a lich but a truly immortal man, or something. The idea is that once the players understand that they can't take what they know about the setting (even OOC) for granted, it's easier to become scared again. And you're not even completely rewriting the setting to do it, because Juste is doing it for you and putting the players through his own personal head-canon of the setting, so you can always go back to how things "really" are whenever you want to.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Juste's one of my favorites. I'd be concerned about using him for an extended campaign, though. I ran one adventure (Feast of Goblyns) within Scaena, and while I think my players appreciated the "tweest" when it was revealed, their characters immediately felt betrayed and tried to kill Juste. He remains one of their #1 targets for revenge.

I can see why you'd want to change things up to surprise your veteran players. But either a) they will find out that it's all illusions, and then have no motivation to continue. (why jump through Juste's hoops if they aren't really accomplishing anything?) or b) they will never find out, and so only you know that Juste is to blame for the changes to canon. To the players, it will just look like you changed the setting. (Which is of course, valid, but doesn't require Juste). or c) the players will know and the characters won't, which will require them to keep that knowledge out of their characters and not act on it, though they will want to. (this ends up with the same motivation issue. The players won't have as much fun if they know all their characters' struggles are false. well, more false than usual. false within their own false world. )

So unless you find some way to motivate them to play ball with Juste, I can't see it lasting long once they find out. (My players just sat motionless on the stage in protest when Juste tried to make them "perform" as second show, and I don't think that's an unreasonable response.)

[JinnTolser]

You bring up some good points, and that also leads to a question I have. It's been quite awhile since I've read up on Juste, especially since I don't have the 2e book where he was originally detailed. Can he still throw more illusions at them once the party knows that it's all fake? Certainly after they realize what's happened, they should be able to roll to disbelieve and potentially figure out the whole thing is a setup.

Also, is he able to conjure up illusions of people from his victims' past? As far as I can remember Juste is not actually a spellcaster - his illusion powers all come from the same curse that keeps him inside Scaena, right? So it's not like he can just detect thoughts to learn what a character's mother looks like and then just plop her into the illusion.

I do agree that this idea of mine is probably best for a brief adventure rather than a longer campaign. It might breathe some new life into the setting for a bit, but the surprise will only work once so I would need to choose the best idea I can get and run with that.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Can he still throw more illusions at them once the party knows that it's all fake? Certainly after they realize what's happened, they should be able to roll to disbelieve and potentially figure out the whole thing is a setup.

Oh yes, he specializes in nested illusions. Generations of DM's have delighted in pulled ye olde false escape from Scaena.

Also, is he able to conjure up illusions of people from his victims' past? As far as I can remember Juste is not actually a spellcaster - his illusion powers all come from the same curse that keeps him inside Scaena, right?

His 2e stats are as a 3rd level illusionist. (plus darklord-enhanced illusion powers). So, technically yes, he's a spellcaster, but that class would probably be changed in 3e, I imagine. Bard seems more likely, or Expert plus darklord powers.

So it's not like he can just detect thoughts to learn what a character's mother looks like and then just plop her into the illusion.

No need for that spell. He can fully read the minds and memories of anyone who steps on his stage. So yes, can easily put a character's mother into the illusion. (and did in my campaign, earning an otherwise good and noble PC's everlasting wrath. )

[jamesfirecat]

My group knows these things too. That's half the point of what I'm getting at, though. When Juste is writing the story, Strahd doesn't have to be a vampire at all - maybe he's a fallen angel or he's possessed by a demon, or maybe he's actually a hero because his brother was the real monster. Maybe Juste's Azalin's is not a lich but a truly immortal man, or something. The idea is that once the players understand that they can't take what they know about the setting (even OOC) for granted, it's easier to become scared again. And you're not even completely rewriting the setting to do it, because Juste is doing it for you and putting the players through his own personal head-canon of the setting, so you can always go back to how things "really" are whenever you want to.

My big question is, will Juste run on stage (or at least stand up from his seat) and shout "WHAT A TWEEEEST!" when the time comes?

[jamesfirecat]

Juste's one of my favorites. I'd be concerned about using him for an extended campaign, though. I ran one adventure (Feast of Goblyns) within Scaena, and while I think my players appreciated the "tweest" when it was revealed, their characters immediately felt betrayed and tried to kill Juste. He remains one of their #1 targets for revenge.

I can see why you'd want to change things up to surprise your veteran players. But either a) they will find out that it's all illusions, and then have no motivation to continue. (why jump through Juste's hoops if they aren't really accomplishing anything?) or b) they will never find out, and so only you know that Juste is to blame for the changes to canon. To the players, it will just look like you changed the setting. (Which is of course, valid, but doesn't require Juste). or c) the players will know and the characters won't, which will require them to keep that knowledge out of their characters and not act on it, though they will want to. (this ends up with the same motivation issue. The players won't have as much fun if they know all their characters' struggles are false. well, more false than usual. false within their own false world. )

So unless you find some way to motivate them to play ball with Juste, I can't see it lasting long once they find out. (My players just sat motionless on the stage in protest when Juste tried to make them "perform" as second show, and I don't think that's an unreasonable response.)

The problem with Juste as a darklord is that though he has mental issues a plenty, there is no real way for the characters to take advantage of them, once they're up on stage, the most they can possibly hope for as far as I can figure is to escape from the performance with their lives and not provoke Juste into turning whatever show he was originally planning into a recreation of the climax of Inglorious Basterds...

To make Juste more interesting, his character/powers need to be rewritten in such a way that like an actual writer his characters can run away with him, and his own powers may wind up being constrained by the nature of the plot he's trying to force the heroes into.

Juste: "Fine, a great big rock falls on you and you're all dead!"

(Huge rock drops on stage)

(Great big rock breaks apart revealing itself to be nothing but Papier-mâché leaving heroes unarmed)

Hero:"A great big rock? Whose ever heard of a party of brave adventurers all being killed by a single over sized boulder while they're out in the middle of the open?"

(So on and so forth, the more the heroes can point out logical failures in Juste's writing, the more his writing has to obey the proper narrative tropes of the story, and if he's trapped them inside an adventure story that means the heroes are going to have a chance to win, and if they're inside a tragedy they need to point out how tragedy has to be properly foreshadowed/set up to be effective.)


In short, Juste is a much more interesting villain, if his failures as a writer start to be reflected by failures to ensnare others within his scripts.

[JinnTolser]

Oh yes, he specializes in nested illusions. Generations of DM's have delighted in pulled ye olde false escape from Scaena.

His 2e stats are as a 3rd level illusionist. (plus darklord-enhanced illusion powers). So, technically yes, he's a spellcaster, but that class would probably be changed in 3e, I imagine. Bard seems more likely, or Expert plus darklord powers.

No need for that spell. He can fully read the minds and memories of anyone who steps on his stage. So yes, can easily put a character's mother into the illusion. (and did in my campaign, earning an otherwise good and noble PC's everlasting wrath. )

Thanks for setting me straight on that. He does seem like he would work better as an Expert or maybe even a low-level Bard, as opposed to actually having Wizard levels. The nested illusions thing does have lots of potential, though I think it would eventually frustrate the hell out of my players (and not in a good way) if used too much.

My big question is, will Juste run on stage (or at least stand up from his seat) and shout "WHAT A TWEEEEST!" when the time comes?

If I don't have him do it, one of the players will make the joke. So yeah, he probably will.

The problem with Juste as a darklord is that though he has mental issues a plenty, there is no real way for the characters to take advantage of them, once they're up on stage, the most they can possibly hope for as far as I can figure is to escape from the performance with their lives and not provoke Juste into turning whatever show he was originally planning into a recreation of the climax of Inglorious Basterds...

To make Juste more interesting, his character/powers need to be rewritten in such a way that like an actual writer his characters can run away with him, and his own powers may wind up being constrained by the nature of the plot he's trying to force the heroes into.

Juste: "Fine, a great big rock falls on you and you're all dead!"

(Huge rock drops on stage)

(Great big rock breaks apart revealing itself to be nothing but Papier-mâché leaving heroes unarmed)

Hero:"A great big rock? Whose ever heard of a party of brave adventurers all being killed by a single over sized boulder while they're out in the middle of the open?"

(So on and so forth, the more the heroes can point out logical failures in Juste's writing, the more his writing has to obey the proper narrative tropes of the story, and if he's trapped them inside an adventure story that means the heroes are going to have a chance to win, and if they're inside a tragedy they need to point out how tragedy has to be properly foreshadowed/set up to be effective.)


In short, Juste is a much more interesting villain, if his failures as a writer start to be reflected by failures to ensnare others within his scripts.

I really like this idea, and it also solves the issue of how to keep from them always thinking that their escape (even if legit) is just another illusion. A villain needs to be beaten eventually and this seems like a good way to add that fatal flaw that can be exploited.

Thanks for the ideas!

[jamesfirecat]

I really like this idea, and it also solves the issue of how to keep from them always thinking that their escape (even if legit) is just another illusion. A villain needs to be beaten eventually and this seems like a good way to add that fatal flaw that can be exploited.

Thanks for the ideas!

Of course if your heroes know all the written material about Ravenloft they may be too familiar with the way Juste rolls to believe that this can be done.

Thus you probably want to have a squinty guy whose there to watch the show with two small golems start calling out some of the plot holes or making fun of the production first and eventually your heroes will realize that they can make the narrative work for them just as much as their captor can.

Ideally Juste deciding to "burn down the theater" again should be a win conditions for the heroes who are given a chance to escape rather than a loose condition where they're forced to be burnt alive.

[The Lesser Evil]

So unless you find some way to motivate them to play ball with Juste, I can't see it lasting long once they find out. (My players just sat motionless on the stage in protest when Juste tried to make them "perform" as second show, and I don't think that's an unreasonable response.)

I think the thing to motivate them to play ball is to make it potentially worth their while. There has to be something to gain for there to be something to lose. There's nothing that says that everything in his realm has to be completely false. I seem to recall it's his curse for him to see all of his creations as false/fake, not necessarily that they actually are fake. I seem to recall Juste received his last "moment of redemption" opportunity that all the darklords get before going irretrievably over the edge. This was when he was plotting to kill all the actors and they commented that this was really great work at tragedy. But he thought it was all just lies and just shrugged their honest feedback off. (Essentially becoming mired in his own self-loathing and projecting it onto other people.)

This would seem to me to suggest a proper rewrite of his curse for his abilities not to just be illusionary, but for them to sometimes actually snap up little pockets of reality within them. (Perhaps without him noticing). Or perhaps he gets so desperate at times he actually does write reality, but never really "gets it" when he does- he writes reality only when he is the most agitated.

Of course, if Juste occasionally rewrites reality, then this can be the party's opportunity to use it for their own gain (or to help others). If Juste could rewrite reality, the characters could muck around with Ravenloft's history to rewrite the setting to be a much nicer place. This gives them incentive to play ball with the unhinged playwright, and this gives you plenty of opportunity to mess with them if they reach too far or mess up somehow. Because they won't just be fooling around with their own lives but potentially the fabric of the multiverse. In any case, when they do well, allow them to change things a bit and come away with neat trophies for their efforts (treasures or even NPC friends/etc. that were previously thought to be "fake".) Besides keeping them on their toes about what's real and what's not, it also might allow them to have something to get emotionally invested in for you to make use of later in the game.

You might also use this opportunity to explore what it means to be "real" and what it means to be "fake" in the demiplane. (It's already somewhat nebulous of the origins of many of the demiplane's natives, but there's a somewhat poignant message that ultimately it may not matter a person's origins; it's who they are as people that matter.) And here's another potential mystery to explore: Juste already effectively has the abilities of one of the Dark Powers himself. What if he had somehow stolen these abilities from one of the Dark Powers, or what if he is one of their numbers himself, put into a domain of his own for some inexplicable transgression? (We know the DPs don't always see eye to eye. The Red Death was banished from Ravenloft as one example.)

Now, a big part of Juste's curse seems to be his self-convinced solipsism (and therefore a lack of conveying true emotion because he doesn't have any real audience.) And even if he did, he sees all his creations as cardboard cut-outs, so even if he won't admit it, his own doubt might prevent him from ever admitting he could succeed. Poetic irony given his love for the theater, Juste's big sin seems to be projection- his feelings of unrealness (in what he does) he projects onto other people (by trying to convince his victims they're just the puppets he created.)

The twist here might be not for pointing out the holes in Juste's creations, but to find the bits of truth, the bits where he's so convincing he can change reality, and then exploit them. If Juste believes his creations are entirely false but in truth they can sometimes take on lives of their own, then that represents a major blind spot for him. One of the most powerful moments in the WB Justice League cartoon was a similar situation (spoilers below)

VIEW CONTENT:

in the episode "Legend". In that episode, the heroes are transported to an alternate Earth seemingly like the superhero comics that inspired Green Lantern to be a hero, complete with a gimmicky Golden/Silver Age type Justice Society equivalent "The Justice Guild". In fact, things are a little bit too much like the old comics because a hidden psychic has frozen the city in stasis for 40 years (to a time before the city was hit by nuclear warfare). After the Justice League heroes convince the "fake" heroes they are indeed creations, the fabricated heroes realize that defeating their creator would mean certain death. However, as reflections of true heroes, they turn on him anyway to free everybody else.

So there you could have an example of how to defeat Juste.

Another way to defeat Juste might be to break down the wall of solipsism he's built around himself. If he could really be convinced of the reality of the people he's been messing with, he might cave and break the illusion under a mental collapse of guilt. OTOH, if one could break past the negativity he's surrounded himself with and convince him he had some talent all along, he might have a villainous "Blue Screen of Death" in realizing that all the crap he has put himself through has been for naught. Either way could cause the collapse of his domain or allow the characters to escape by rendering him inert.