Scholar of Decay makes me hate Legacy of Blood...

[Zilfer]

Of course, an appropriate contact could be set up with a sadistically inclined, but of a trustworthy nature (is there such a thing for the latter?) of a person with a ring of regeneration and one unlucky bastard.

HA! took a second for me to get that! Delicious.

[alhoon]

To quote directly from Gazetter 3 (page 98)

"Jacqueline Renier is widely revered by the common people under her dominion. The Richemuloise look upon Jacqueline with pride, considering her a patriot, a maternal figure, and a cunning ruler."

That's a lot better rep than most darklords have among their subjects.

Agreed.

[Boris Drakov]

http://bedejournal.blogspot.no/2011/11/ ... rates.html

Medieval murder rates could be pretty harrowing

The tenfold more populous hinterland of cities would supply an endless parade of victims.

[Zilfer]

Interesting little read there. Thanks for sharing.

[alhoon]

Thanks! Interesting read.
" (equivalent to 52 per 100,000 and 36 per 100,000 meaning London was as violent as present day New Orleans).
...
(18 per 100,000). This would make London’s murder rate equivalent to present day Atlanta or Pittsburgh"
Is NO really that violent?
Also, I would say that even 50/100K is way less than I expected. I'm pretty sure less murders were reported back then or made it to the books of today's historians.
Not to mention that, you know, when the Lord's guards kill you because they believe you didn't show enough respect it's actually murder.

All in all, I believe the coroner stats are the best, adding manslaughter + murder + accidents. OK, you reduce it by a little for accidents and you end up with a 70-80 murders/manslaughter per 100K people.

[Ryan Naylor]

Thanks! Interesting read.
" (equivalent to 52 per 100,000 and 36 per 100,000 meaning London was as violent as present day New Orleans).
...
(18 per 100,000). This would make London’s murder rate equivalent to present day Atlanta or Pittsburgh"
Is NO really that violent?
Also, I would say that even 50/100K is way less than I expected. I'm pretty sure less murders were reported back then or made it to the books of today's historians.
Not to mention that, you know, when the Lord's guards kill you because they believe you didn't show enough respect it's actually murder.

All in all, I believe the coroner stats are the best, adding manslaughter + murder + accidents. OK, you reduce it by a little for accidents and you end up with a 70-80 murders/manslaughter per 100K people.

New Orleans' murder rate is high partly because it has a relatively low population, which skews the count per 100,000 people a little, but also because of the ready supply of firearms in the USA, and probably cultural concepts around violence too.

The USA (overall) has 14,800 murders for a population of 316 million people. If you add the UK, Ireland, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, France, Germany, and the Low Countries together (so, the other ex-commonwealth countries, and the countries of NW Europe) together, you get a 313 million people, and a murder count of 3,200 (1/4 of the US's).

In contrast, South Africa has 16,200 murders in a population of 53 million (31 per 100,000 people).



Not to trivialise the issue, but if you're going to take a population demographics approach to murder in Ravenloft (or any other fantasy setting), you're going to get some odd numbers out. That's largely because adventure designers don't think about this, and have no sense of scale.

[alhoon]

Not to trivialise the issue, but if you're going to take a population demographics approach to murder in Ravenloft (or any other fantasy setting), you're going to get some odd numbers out. That's largely because adventure designers don't think about this, and have no sense of scale.

Well, I do. As said in an earlier post you get unsustainable population with so many murders.

People in Ravenloft die from other reasons than murderers. Infant mortality before the industrial age for example was like 70% or something. At the "good" years of Europe, before the plague, population "boomed" as in doubled in 200 years. An average increase of 3.5% per decade was considered exceptional.

Assuming Ravenloft's Dark powers made sure the "usual" suspects for population size control (plague/famine) were lessened and that infant mortality wasn't in the actual, atrocious levels but deaths from predators and murders/executions kept the population in check. That would leave a 0.7% deaths by predators/murders per year or, for Pont a Museu, about 112 murders (by anyone, not just wererats) per year. Let's assume the presence of so many Reniers there skews the statistics a bit and Pont a Museu has more murders than 0.7% while the rest of Richemulot has less. With 1%, we have 160 murders.
That's ~13/month, not 50/month as implied in the book.

Do you want 50 murders per month, without depopulating Richemulot? Bump P-a-M to metropolis of 60K people the size of say, Rouen or Genoa in the era.

[Ryan Naylor]

Yes, I know. I was agreeing with you.

[Boris Drakov]

Pre-Industrial Revolution most cities actually had unsustainable populations due to horrid sanitary conditions, poor nutrition and massive fires and plagues.

The cities would've died out without the flood of landless hailing from peasant families churning out 8-10 kids per couple.

So tons of murders wouldn't really make a dent in population either way compared to 25-50% dying off in epidemics, war, famine and fires.

[Zilfer]

I'm trying to understand your point Alhoon. I think you said and correct me if I'm wrong...

If you take out 70% childbirth deaths because the Dark powers want more pawns to play with and add in the Reiner's murders in Pont a Museau, the murders equate to more? Is that what you meant?

Though with Richemulot i always pictured it as a constant flux of new people coming from other lands, since wasn't Richemulot not populated before? So that amount in the books are all immigrants aren't they? For each person you kill i'd expect more to be pooring in when there is such a good wealth of land to be had for next to nothing! Pay for land? Why when you can move to Richemulot and farm those lonely fields and visit the cities! Find a mansion in the city and stake a claim. Anyone from Falkovnia would probably die for a chance at that... heh they probably do!

[alhoon]

I'm trying to understand your point Alhoon. I think you said and correct me if I'm wrong...

If you take out 70% childbirth deaths because the Dark powers want more pawns to play with and add in the Reiner's murders in Pont a Museau, the murders equate to more? Is that what you meant?

Not exactly... I said that if you reduced other causes of death (infant death, plague and most importantly famine and war) you "open up" space for more Renier murders without depopulating everything.

Yes, Richemulot seems enticing to move in but if the rate of murders is the same as a battlezone, then it loses its appeal. Barovia is safer for example. Also, on the immigrants, how could a poor family in a hamlet in Nova Vaasa travel all the way to Richemulot? A few will be desperate enough to try and lucky enough to make it. But I don't expect that hundreds arrive each day, just to be eaten by wererats.

So tons of murders wouldn't really make a dent in population either way compared to 25-50% dying off in epidemics, war, famine and fires.

When the number of murders is x2 the number of all other deaths combined, they would make a dent.
Not to mention Richemulot is mostly cities with few farms

[jamesfirecat]

I'm trying to understand your point Alhoon. I think you said and correct me if I'm wrong...

If you take out 70% childbirth deaths because the Dark powers want more pawns to play with and add in the Reiner's murders in Pont a Museau, the murders equate to more? Is that what you meant?

Though with Richemulot i always pictured it as a constant flux of new people coming from other lands, since wasn't Richemulot not populated before? So that amount in the books are all immigrants aren't they? For each person you kill i'd expect more to be pooring in when there is such a good wealth of land to be had for next to nothing! Pay for land? Why when you can move to Richemulot and farm those lonely fields and visit the cities! Find a mansion in the city and stake a claim. Anyone from Falkovnia would probably die for a chance at that... heh they probably do!

There very much were people already living in Richemulot when it first showed up much like just about every other domain, (it wasn't just the Renier's sitting around waiting for some prey... I mean immigrants to show up, that would have been sort of awkward) it was just that the ratio of "people already there" to "number of homes built to support people" were way off to the point that anybody who wanted to live in a McMansion could. A run down dilapidated McMansion with a none the less surprisingly large and well built connection to the city's sewer system.

So no, not everyone in Richemulot is an immigrant or a wererat.

[jamesfirecat]

Yes, Richemulot seems enticing to move in but if the rate of murders is the same as a battlezone, then it loses its appeal. Barovia is safer for example. Also, on the immigrants, how could a poor family in a hamlet in Nova Vaasa travel all the way to Richemulot? A few will be desperate enough to try and lucky enough to make it. But I don't expect that hundreds arrive each day, just to be eaten by wererats.

I imagine most of Richemulot's immigrants actually come mainly from the surrounding nations.

The physical craftsmen of Dementlieu (people who make anything that exists to be used rather than looked at) probably are known to pick up stake every now and again because Richemulot offers a much more fluid class structure where you can rise above the station you were born at without needing to be able to paint paintings/sculpt sculptures/find a noble patron. Also they already speak the language!

There people from Mordent who are seeking a more urban lifestyle (need to read more on Mordent before I can properly describe this point) would also probably move, and once again they already speak the language more or less.

Anyone from Falkovnia with the mix of will, intelligence, and luck who can make it over the boarder would probably consider themselves lucky to have done so, likewise from Borca. Life in Richemulot may be short, but it's not like it's that much longer in either of those places and the quality of life is much better while it lasts.

For what it's worth according to Gaz 3 the breakdown of the population is

78% native, 9% Borcans, 7% Falkovnians, 3% Nova Vaasans, 2% Darkonians 1% Other... and wow looking at that I'm really surprised there aren't more immigrants from Dementlieu... guess they're too busy getting mind controlled by Dominic or the Brain to think about moving...

Also just because I'm curious, how would we go about figuring out the mortality/murder rate for much of the rest of the Core by comparison?

[alhoon]

78% Native could be 2nd generation immigrants included. Also, since you mentioned it, I would cut a 3% and put it to Dementlieu immigrants. That the developers didn't think of it, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense.

Also, Borca is OK for the peasants. The nobles have the problems with Ivana wreaking havoc in the social structure.

As for the natives when the domain arrived:
When the domain arrived, those "already living" there, were also descendants of immigrants that moved there in the past according to what I read. They didn't know how the majestic cities they inhabit came to be.

[jamesfirecat]

Also, Borca is OK for the peasants. The nobles have the problems with Ivana wreaking havoc in the social structure.

How is Borca "okay" for the peasants? They're taxed in the ground, they have to pay rent on whatever land they live on, and they can be killed walking down the street by some random noble so long as their families are then paid two years worth of their wages (IE the average peasants life is worth 73 gold is I believe the ruling meme on the mater) in return! If you move to Richemulot the taxes are lower, and you can actually OWN the land you live on! Actually owning the land you live on is something only the most upper of upper crust get to do in Baroca!

"Borca's underclass work themselves to the bone to fill the noble's coffers while the nobles endlessly maneuver through courts to protect their wealth."

Gazetteer 4 page 20


"The vast majority of Borcans spend their lives in crushing poverty."

Gazetteer 4 page 23

Seriously, Baroca is so not a nice place to live for the peasants, what makes you think it is?


The nobles of Richemulot might end up eating your alive literally, but at least they'll do it a lot more quickly than the nobles of Baroca will do it figuratively....