Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

Post by ewancummins »

The outfit that Yagno wears in some illos looks vaguely Tibetan to me.
Look at his headgear.
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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

Post by ewancummins »

HuManBing wrote:
Joël of the FoS wrote:I read a bio on Mao and it says the Long March was one of the greatest myth of that era (But I admit it was written by a guy who obviously hated Mao – Jung Chang).
That book (and Wild Swans by the wife author Jung Chang) is great for showing the pervasive nature of a cult of personality. Well worth reading for pointers as to how to portray an "all seeing Great Leader" similar to Big Brother or Kim Jong-Il.

All the other points you make from the book are adequately qualified with your own warnings about their subjectivity, so I won't waste time pointing them out. The only thing to clarify is the gender of the author - John Halliday is the male author, Jung Chang is his wife (celebrated literary luminary, but also a disillusioned product of the Cultural Revolution). The Long March was undoubtedly wildly inflated for propaganda purposes by the Communists to serve as a "creation mythology" for their origination, but it was ultimately born from a necessary ordeal (the alternative being annihilation). This is in contrast to the Great Leap Forward, which was utterly meritless and a ruinous act of political whimsy.

Aside from the Long March, I think the analysis of Mao's artificial lionization rings very true. He definitely killed more people than Hitler, and almost certainly killed more people than Stalin - there's a better than average chance he killed more than both of them combined*. The cult of personality method of government, where you credit a mortal leader with godly powers, was very much in effect for Communist China just as it was for Soviet Russia (and Nationalist China, and Imperial China... etc.). It was so egregious that even the hardline Chinese Communist Party outlawed future cults of personality as "too dangerous" for the country - the autocratic party considers a "true hero leader" to be more trouble than it's worth!

It's beautifully applicable to Yagno Petrovna in G'henna. (Or Vlad Drakov in Falkovnian, or Azalin in Darkon, etc.)




*Although Mao had an unfair advantage in that he was ruling over the most populous nation in the world and most of his deaths were caused by economic mismanagement scaled up on the larger populace, rather than murderous intent. The question you have to ask when awarding "Worst Dictator" titles is whether you're purely going for punishing simple malpractice or specific malice. Hitler didn't kill as many people as Mao did, but he was certainly significantly more systematic about it, and far fewer of the deaths were incidental through bureaucratic incompetence.

I'd add that Mao and the Communists are still accountable for all those supposedly 'unintentional deaths', ineptitude aside, because they attempted to coercively apply a batshit insane economic theory that common sense would have indicated could never work in the real world, and killed people who pointed out that it wasn't working as advertised. They doubled down on failure and thus killed many, many more people than an honest mistake in planning or policy would have killed. Such is the nature of totalitarian crazy-pants ideology.

Is agriculture in G'Henna collectivized? We know that crops and presumably livestock are all supposed to taken for redistribution by the church/state. That system seems to either starve people on purpose, or just be so poorly run that it starves people by 'accident.' But it persists anyway, even though it obviously isn't working well. Sounds like just what totalitarian religious fanatics would do-- just as in Red China.

But hey, starving for Zhakata is holy, a great act of piety. Just don't ask why priests don't do it, or off the the work camps you go for labor and 'reeducation.'

G'Henna is a bit like the bad things in Red China as well as the unpleasant aspects of old order in Tibet, methinks.

And the ruler turns people into Mongrelmen!

Freaky.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

Post by High Priest Mikhal »

Blind faith--or arrogance, when the two are at all separate--make people immune to logic and common sense. There are simply too many examples to cite. As it is with politics, so it is religion. That Yagno's curse is to forever be haunted by doubt in the existence of his god speaks volumes of how much blind faith is a part of G'Henna. The same can be said of the communist leaders in China. For all the atheistic dogma Marxism touts, people still adhere to it as strictly as any religion.
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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

Post by HuManBing »

Yes, you can get fanatics of any political force, not just a theocratic religion. By far the most difficult futurist society I tried to write up was a cybernetic society of open discourse and scientific competition. Once the factions and their views on science grew powerful enough, they ironically became as dogmatic in their devotion to their specific scientific views as any theist in a non scientific religious schema.

This society would have been put at the top of a space elevator and its primary goal would be to mine the entire planet for computronium. The flavor of the warring outlooks would be rather similar to the cults in Planescape's Sigil.

The write up was too challenging for me and I went with a more familiar "mad doctor" trope instead.
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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

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ewancummins wrote:I'd add that Mao and the Communists are still accountable for all those supposedly 'unintentional deaths', ineptitude aside, because they attempted to coercively apply a batshit insane economic theory that common sense would have indicated could never work in the real world, and killed people who pointed out that it wasn't working as advertised. They doubled down on failure and thus killed many, many more people than an honest mistake in planning or policy would have killed. Such is the nature of totalitarian crazy-pants ideology.
This is getting a bit offtopic here, but the elimination of people under Maoist totalitarianism was incidental. His policies messed up and millions died. Compare this to Hitler, where the elimination of millions of people was completely intentional and indeed part of his greater plan. Hitler's smaller death count is almost entirely owing to the fact that he had fewer people to work with. Mao lucked out by fetching up on the world's most populous nation, where he had a much larger canvas to work with.

The key question is whether we should factor in the disparity in beginning resources for each dictator when we're assessing their final overall bloodiness.

There are two competing values at work here, and I'll need to employ an anecdote to illustrate them. In my middle school, each student would receive a numerical grade for attainment (i.e. how well you're doing in that class) and a letter grade for effort (i.e. how hard you're trying). The teachers said at that point they preferred a 5A student (one who was bottom of the class but trying really damn hard) over a 1E student (one who was top of the class and bone idle) - but later on in life, I can attest that workplaces and colleges tend to invert the priority: they're happy as long as you get your work done well, and your actual attitude towards your work is not particularly relevant.

A similar ethical question of merit applies here: if we're handing out awards to recognize the greatest amount of human misery ever perpetrated by a dictator, do we give them to those who caused death and misery through incompetence? Or do we favor those who killed fewer people... but did so in a more diligent and conscientious sort of manner?

Essentially, what sort of values are we trying to encourage and motivate future generations of aspiring mass-murderers to adopt?

On the whole, I think either viewpoint is valid, but it's important to be upfront about whether you're trying to encourage subjective effort or objective attainment. If you focus too much on the mathematics of body counts, then you're really stripping the dictatorial budget of extracurricular activities like propaganda, debauchery, torture, and paranoid espionage. You may "win" numerically, but you seriously endanger some of the aesthetically enriching aspects of a healthy, well-adjusted tyrant regime.
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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

Post by ewancummins »

I think you are giving the Maoists a pass they don't deserve. They knew perfectly well what they were doing and they did it anyway, long past the point where mere incompetence could be claimed as an excuse. Some of those famines were planned, and the others were caused by planning that couldn't possibly have worked. At what point does 'incompetence' become criminality?

The Communists wanted to murder millions of people because they knew that only by killing huge numbers of people could they break down the old order and create their new order. They didn't take things as far as the Khmer Rouge, of course.

Thank goodness, the really crazy people like Mao eventually died off or lost power and a less crazy, although still pretty horrid, set of leaders took over.



Back to G'Henna, I think a lot could be done with the food distribution system run by the clergy. No need to turn the game into 'social commentary hour', but it's pretty clear that the sort of 'centralized state takes all food and redistributes it based on needs' system that G'Henna apparently uses has never worked in the real world. It may be more the cause of hunger in G'Henna than low rainfall or the quality of the soil.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

-from Moby Dick (Hermann Melville)
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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

Post by High Priest Mikhal »

HuManBing wrote:Yes, you can get fanatics of any political force, not just a theocratic religion. By far the most difficult futurist society I tried to write up was a cybernetic society of open discourse and scientific competition. Once the factions and their views on science grew powerful enough, they ironically became as dogmatic in their devotion to their specific scientific views as any theist in a non scientific religious schema.
Humans have a way of devoting themselves heart and soul to something and will kill (literally) for their specific beliefs. Even when those beliefs espouse peace and brotherhood. It's an old joke that when two belief systems that preach peace and tolerance meet each other they try to kill the other. Old, and sadly, very true.

Now throw in a not-so-peaceful belief system--like Zhakata's church--and things get ugly. Well-fed adventurers are definitely going to attract unwanted attention and likely the wrath of the priests who wield divine magic that doesn't rely on physical strength to cause serious harm or even death. All because they saw someone who didn't look like a fleshy skeleton with the swollen pot belly of severe malnutrition. This isn't even going into how the priests may take advantage of the situation for appetites other than culinary.
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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

Post by ewancummins »

High Priest Mikhal wrote:
HuManBing wrote:Yes, you can get fanatics of any political force, not just a theocratic religion. By far the most difficult futurist society I tried to write up was a cybernetic society of open discourse and scientific competition. Once the factions and their views on science grew powerful enough, they ironically became as dogmatic in their devotion to their specific scientific views as any theist in a non scientific religious schema.
Humans have a way of devoting themselves heart and soul to something and will kill (literally) for their specific beliefs. Even when those beliefs espouse peace and brotherhood. It's an old joke that when two belief systems that preach peace and tolerance meet each other they try to kill the other. Old, and sadly, very true.

Now throw in a not-so-peaceful belief system--like Zhakata's church--and things get ugly. Well-fed adventurers are definitely going to attract unwanted attention and likely the wrath of the priests who wield divine magic that doesn't rely on physical strength to cause serious harm or even death. All because they saw someone who didn't look like a fleshy skeleton with the swollen pot belly of severe malnutrition. This isn't even going into how the priests may take advantage of the situation for appetites other than culinary.
Right, Zhakata's church is already pretty much evil to begin with, so it's not as if we are just seeing a twisted version of something that is usually a benign faith.

I do wonder if the Provider aspect might be neutral-aligned, though. Without muddying the waters too much, that could be interesting. Some heretics who aren't so bad.

Or is it better if the church is evil, all the time, period?
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

-from Moby Dick (Hermann Melville)
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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

Post by Joël of the FoS »

HuManBing wrote: This is getting a bit offtopic here, but the elimination of people under Maoist totalitarianism was incidental. His policies messed up and millions died. Compare this to Hitler, where the elimination of millions of people was completely intentional and indeed part of his greater plan. Hitler's smaller death count is almost entirely owing to the fact that he had fewer people to work with. Mao lucked out by fetching up on the world's most populous nation, where he had a much larger canvas to work with.
Do not forget the frequent heavy purges within administration. It was used as a terror device. The days Mao woke up and said « I believe one party member out of 20 is corrupted, or is a counter revolutionary. Send the directive through the party, everywhere in the country, that this person is to be identified and sent to work camp. »

It was totally arbitrary! It was a terror device made to make the remaining 19 tightly within the ranks of the party, fearful that they could be next, so making sure they are exemplary.

That kind of terror purge is quite evil, and that should be kept for GHenna too! ;)

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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

Post by ScS of the Fraternity »

All this talk about the iron curtain has got me thinking:

What does the average G'hennan know about the outside world?

Are they told that everywhere else in the mists is a barren desert of death, and that Zhakata has preserved their land alone? Might they be told that all outsiders eat unclean foods, perhaps even people? It would certainly cause them to hate and fear outlanders.
Perhaps the G'hennans believe that theirs is a land of plenty compared to the rest of the world.
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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

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ScS of the Fraternity wrote:All this talk about the iron curtain has got me thinking:

What does the average G'hennan know about the outside world?

Are they told that everywhere else in the mists is a barren desert of death, and that Zhakata has preserved their land alone? Might they be told that all outsiders eat unclean foods, perhaps even people? It would certainly cause them to hate and fear outlanders.
Perhaps the G'hennans believe that theirs is a land of plenty compared to the rest of the world.
Prior to the Grand Conjunction G'Henna was part of the Core. It's no doubt some would have seen people from more bountiful domains and heard how barren and desolate their own home is in comparison. Propaganda about unclean foods, and even cannibalism, was no doubt in use to keep the faithful in line. For those from G'Henna who actually traveled outside the domain and never saw any signs of what the priests told them about it was likely a shock and revelation of what their priests were doing. But to speak against them would be blasphemy and that entailed transformation into a mongrelman.

Post-Grand Conjunction it wouldn't be hard to convince the people they alone were saved and are even "chosen." Foreigners who find themselves there now could be "forsaken by Zhakata," "demons in disguise," or lost souls who must be shown the way to salvation by starvation.
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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

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High Priest Mikhal wrote:
ScS of the Fraternity wrote:All this talk about the iron curtain has got me thinking:

What does the average G'hennan know about the outside world?

Are they told that everywhere else in the mists is a barren desert of death, and that Zhakata has preserved their land alone? Might they be told that all outsiders eat unclean foods, perhaps even people? It would certainly cause them to hate and fear outlanders.
Perhaps the G'hennans believe that theirs is a land of plenty compared to the rest of the world.
Prior to the Grand Conjunction G'Henna was part of the Core. It's no doubt some would have seen people from more bountiful domains and heard how barren and desolate their own home is in comparison. Propaganda about unclean foods, and even cannibalism, was no doubt in use to keep the faithful in line. For those from G'Henna who actually traveled outside the domain and never saw any signs of what the priests told them about it was likely a shock and revelation of what their priests were doing. But to speak against them would be blasphemy and that entailed transformation into a mongrelman.

Post-Grand Conjunction it wouldn't be hard to convince the people they alone were saved and are even "chosen." Foreigners who find themselves there now could be "forsaken by Zhakata," "demons in disguise," or lost souls who must be shown the way to salvation by starvation.

Right, I like that!

Yagno may preach that all other countries were destroyed, and only the faithful realm of G'Henna was spared.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.

-from Moby Dick (Hermann Melville)
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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

Post by tomokaicho »

Interesting stuff.

I don't get the sense that G'Henna is a completely centralized economy, with the state owning the means of production. A marxist model of social organization would be too big a matter to go unmentioned. Controlling and taxing the producers, certainly.

We can have Tibetan theocratic tyranny, Maoist purges, and so on to give flavor to G'Henna. Also of interest would be this book -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cult_(novel)

In this fictional book we see the methods by which cults are able to recruit seemingly normal people, and turn them into unthinking fanatics. Unfortunately the wikipedia entry doesn't do it justice. Add in a splash of 'Animal Farm' and I think we have the oppressive nature of G'Henna in full.
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Re: Just noticed this - G'Henna = Pre-1959 Tibet

Post by Ryan Naylor »

ewancummins wrote:Yagno may preach that all other countries were destroyed, and only the faithful realm of G'Henna was spared.
The official line is that following the GC, this is exactly what happened.
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