alhoon wrote:Ahem, the canon is 1" = 25 miles, not 1" = 1 mile.
Okay, I pulled out the DoD maps to check, and it looks like we were both wrong: it's 1 = 10. I was actually thinking that when I wrote 1 = 1. Grrrrrr.... Okay, I'll change the poll and we'll start over. Maybe this time I'll actually get to vote? I've tried like five times, on three browsers.
What? I've asked Azalin back in the SotK and he told me (after the usual nice stuff he said about our intellect) that there is no map scale officially but that "1" = 25 miles" would work for the map that is in the core Ravenloft book.
Let's try something: What's the straight distance between Nartok and Necropolis? Not by road, but straight.
I was led to assume that semi-canonical distance was about 25 miles. In my campaign it's 50 miles. You tell me that it's just 10 miles?
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia My DMGuild work!
According to the two maps with scales on them--the one from the black box and the one from the red box--then yes 1" = 10 miles in the Core. This scale is repeated in the map from The Shadow Rift.
I have seen 1 = 25 scale in Death Ascendant, which flies right in the face of the maps referenced above. These are the most specific examples I can think of. While the DA map seems like the outlier, it certainly shows at least a difference of opinion among the designers (or possibly a blatant mistake, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt).
The smaller scale works for me personally. In the DA map, the city of Nartok itself would be almost 20 miles across. Representing city size on maps of this scale is dangerous and typically inaccurate. Even a small dot on a 1" = 10 miles map will grossly overstate the actual size of a city.
With 1"=10 miles in the map of the 3E Ravenloft core setting, we have a Core that's about 5000-5500 square miles. That's not as large as Switzerland, it's a bit larger than Corsica.
The whole West-to-East Core is one day's ride (barring mists, monsters on the way or plainly getting lost).
I use 1"=50 miles which gives a Core of 100K-110K sq miles (250K-280K sq km), which is not exactly continental.
A lot of people use a larger scale than this.
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia My DMGuild work!
Alhoon, you need to remember the maps from the 2nd edition boxed sets were both posters, so considerably larger than a one or two page map from a book; probably about 3 times that size.
I do have a more selfish reason for the smaller scale, and that is my floundering Ravenloft in Minecraft project. I just think it would be nice to see the setting in 3d, even if it is a blocky 3d. I'm very interested in the goolge-earth version of Ravenloft as well. Zooming to street level would be handy for most DMs. These two projects alone encourage a smaller scale. Just coming up with enough chatter between landmarks to make the map believable is a big enough obstacle to make me want to keep things as tight as possible.
Gonzoron, thank you for reminding me about DOD maps, I forgot they had scales on them. I don't have a dead tree copy handy at the moment, but just eyeballing my pdf version tells me the scale changed earlier than I would have thought. The DoD map is about 3x larger than the black box, correct?
When I run My Ravenloft games I really like to use the domain of Barovia. I re-drew the domain and added a few things I think it should have had, (trying to make it as cannon as possible) and made some mistakes in the mapping of the domain its self that proved to be fun for my players so I kept them. I'll post the map.
I have a really nice Ravenloft transparency that I found in a dusty Ravenloft collection I purchased along time ago at a garage sale that has hexes printed on it with a basic scale at the bottom. when I over lay the transparency over my Barovia map I get a really nice idea of the scale of my Barovia. I like to use four hexes = 1 day travel. this makes the travel from Vallaki to the village of Barovia about a three day journey which I like very much. I tried to set my Ravenloft scale by days traveled rather than mileage because, in my opinion, the commoners and simple folk of Barovia more likely than not determine travel by how many days (and dangerous nights) it might take to get from one place to another. The scale I use varies when using a road (4 hexes = 1 day) or when traveling over rough terrain or mountains (1-2 hexes = 1 day)
Now, The average walking speed for pedestrians is about 4 miles per hour. Giving an average walking travel time of about 10 hours a day if they are traveling on a road, with about 6 hours of extra time for building a camp, stopping to eat, dealing with ravenous monsters, and about 8 hours of "rest". That makes it approximately 40 miles (probably more like 35) of travel per day. Which would make a fairly accurate scale listed as 1 hex = 10 miles. given that statement my Barovia is 50 hexes across and about 30 hexes tall. (500 miles by 300 miles) Which is really cool considering that both the real life Romania and Transylvania look rather similar in shape to Barovia and are in a range of about 400-450 miles across and 200-250 miles tall.
I hope I was able to add something to what I think the general size of the domains of dread might be. Either way, every ones game will be different and their is no definitive answer, this is just what I use, and will be using when I build the Domain of Barovia in Skyrim when the creation kit comes out. (( where do I post picture jpeg files? ))
"I have been so long master that I would be master still, or at least that none other should be master of me."
-Bram Stoker, Dracula
40 miles a day? That's very good. I think you may have overshot the mark a bit. Even 35 is impressive, although certainly not impossible.
Some considerations: How much weight are these guys carrying? What are the road conditions? Weather? Is this a forced march?
A modern US Army soldier is expected to be able to go 12 miles in 3 or 4 hours in full kit. 25 miles or so would be a road march in one day. Note that , while the packs are probably heavier than what a Barovian traveller would carry, the road condition are presumably much better. Marching through dirt trails in the mountains is a lot rougher than hiking down the interstate.
That's about the same as a forced march for a Roman legionary, BTW.
Long distance hikers on the Appalachian Trail might do 10 to 30 miles in a day. These guys are usually not carrying as much weight as soldiers; no rifle, no body armor, no ammo, etc. They are off road, but on semi-improved trails. It's not a paved surface, but it has been marked and cleared of major obstacles. Of course, some guys go further off the beaten track.
PS- In the Army, I did numerous 12 miles road marches in full kit, plus a medic's aid bag. Those marches were on the sides of roads, but not without some low hills. I was moving at my own pace. My average time was about 2 hours and twenty minutes, IIRC. I'm sure I'd be slower now, but I could still come in under three by pushing myself. I also did a couple of 25 mile forced marches.
I still get out and walk a lot, and I enjoy a good hike in the woods.
My experience may be different from yours, of course. As always, YMMV.
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.
Thalmagrus wrote:Good point. I might have over estimated the travel amount a bit. This should definitely help put some better numbers on the board though.
Kewl beans. I hoped the examples would help.
You could fiddle with the quality and incline of roads and trails to slow down or speed up average travel times between towns.
Again, YMMV
Delight is to him- a far, far upward, and inward delight- who against the proud gods and commodores of this earth, ever stands forth his own inexorable self.
