Ravenloft by Gaslight

[ewancummins]

If Vorostokov is in regular contact with other lands- why haven't the natives fled? It's a land of eternal winter!

Perhaps you should make it a colony- a penal colony.

[Manofevil]

The problem with the Sithican development is that I am STRONGLY downplaying the role of magic / fantasy in the setting. I know that sounds weird, but rather than it be a Deadlands style Weird West, it's more like Indiana Jones, in that these fantastic elements exist, but they do so in a loosely defined area.

Also? There is the sheer problem of population. Sithicus is one domain, and elves aren't exactly a propitious people. Compare that to the population BOOM that happens in developing nations once the agricultural, and industrial, revolutions occur.

Ah, population, the eternal curse of the setting. Still there's a difference between being an insular people distrustful of outsiders and group of bare-chested, loincloth-wearing, face-painting, unwashed savages fit for nothing but domestication. In fact, upon reflection, I think know exactly what role the Sithican elves, maybe all elves, maybe even all non-humans, they would be the JEWS!
Imagine, down the street walks a Sithican Elf dressed in the traditional garb and that's all it takes to trigger the muttering.
"Who are these forest people?"
"I hear they don't even worship the gods."
"Have you seen how much land their 'sacred forest' takes up? Do you know how many people we could feed if we farmed it?"
"Why do we put up with them?"
etc. etc. etc.

Now they wouldn't be the jews in the sense of being the moneylenders of the core, of course. Rather they would be the distrusted rich. The rich people the poor have EVERYBODY'S permission to hate. It's different for say dwarves or gnomes. At least the muttering would be.
"I hate when those people come in here. They STINK!"
Poor people might complain but they'd have a lot more in common with them and if they work mines, they'd have to learn to trust them. Elves don't do the same work as human commoners, in fact, they don't live anything like them, and that would be all it takes to establish severe distrust. You're right about the elven city ala Lothlorien from the LOTR movies being incompatible with what you're trying to do here, though. The Sithican forest would not have the cut grass and pruned trees of the traditional elven city. It would be a forest grown uncontrolled around the elven dwellings. There would be a lot of scrub brush and other wild vegetation. The elves wouldn't quite live in the shadow of the forest the way that, say, most South American forest dwelling people do, but anybody else who gets into the deep woods would.
Also, do the afflicted kender of sithicus survive at all?

[sndwurks]

Re: Vorostokov

Who is to say they haven't? It's not in an enternal winter, so much anymore. But until contact was made with the Core, they had no reason to believe anything was out there. Even in the current map, they are surrounded on three sides by the Misty Border, and the fourth by the Sea of Sorrows. Also, it is the most distant from the Core out of the four subcontinents (Shadowlands, Steaming Lands, Amber Wastes, and the Frozen Reaches). However, I do see Vorostokov having only the people who were too proud to leave, and those who were too scared to risk a long, unpredictable sea voyage. Winters are still long, and cold, and dark, but it's more akin to living in the Arctic Circle than an inner level of Hell.

Re: Sithican Kender

Oh, they're still there. Just... if you're not Sithican? It's a short elf from Sithicus. Who happen to be even more stand offish and xenophobic than the rest of the elves.

The main problem with the comparison you are making, Manofevil, is that I don't see the Sithicans as been as culturally significant or as widespread. To note, part of the strong discrimination against the Jewish people came from the fact that they maintained a distinct cultural heritage despite spreading across Europe, Asia, and Africa. The Jewish diasporas were each a result of the conquest and occupation of the lands of Israel, Jordan, and parts of Lebanon, dating back to as potentially early as the 7th century BCE, and the expulsion of the native population. The Sithicans have not been conquered by foreign powers and kicked out of Sithicus.

I see the Sithicans as being a very isolationist community, who see a common cause with some of the Kartakans potentially, but ultimately just want to be left alone, to live their lives as they see fit. The hunger for raw materials have other targets to go after first, and I see most of the world okay with the Sithicans being backwards and angry.

As a note? I don't see the Sithicans as wearing loin-cloths and hurling spears, no more so than the Rajians or Akiri (whom have advanced mathematics and engineering). I see them as having villages, with agriculture, self-governance, and a distinct cultural identity. They likely wear clothes sensible for their environment and means. It is a culture of racism and imperialism that would detail things differently. As such, a Sithican in a cartoon produced by a Matira Bay newspaper would be dressed in leaves (just enough for modesty) with giant, knife-like ears and squinting eyes. But the reality would be far different.

That being said, the cultural heritage of the demihumans towards Falkovnia has a STRONG edge of "surviving genocide". Mainly demihuman families who could get out of Darkon during the Falkovnian invasion did so, settling in Tepest and Richemulot primarily, but many more could not. And when Falkovnia realized they were not going to win the war, they just started killing demihumans because they were too afraid of the work-camps they created turning into enemy strongholds. I expect the symbol of the Iron Falcon to carry a very particularly dark legacy among the western Core, and seeing an old demihuman with a brand on their forehead would have distinct connotations.

[Manofevil]

So the Sithicans would be more like the pre-twentieth century JAPANESE, then. Yeah, now I've got an idea of what you're doing.
Sailor washes up on the Sithican shore. Elf finds him.
"WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?! WHAT'S THAT?! I'M WEARING PANTS?! OF COURSE I'M WEARING PANTS!! WHAT ELSE WOULD I BE WEARING?! YOU'RE LUCKY YOU'RE STILL WEARING PANTS!! YOU GET ONE FREE RIDE TO THE BORDER MISTER! NEXT TIME YOU MIGHT FIND YOURSELF HANGING FROM SOMETHING!!"
Close?

[ewancummins]

Many Jews in medieval and early modern Europe were quite poor, in fact.


Are there Sithican rag and bone elves wandering the streets of the human cities, gathering rubbish for recycling and reuse? They might be skilled at making paper from scrap cloth. Sithican grave-diggers?

Maybe Sithicus has been overrun by humans and its native elvish population largely scattered across the world?

Human (and perhaps half-elf) lumber barons could control most of Old Sithicus now.

[alhoon]

Demihumans in Tepest?

Anyway, how's Tepest holding? I would imagine religion playing a major part. In some civilized places the inquisition is kicked out and forced to stop burning people while in rural and remote villages zealots would propably still be kicking doors in the night.

[Manofevil]

Hey yeah! What happened to the hags? If the Darklords can leave their realms now, they could go their separate ways and do all kinds of things. They could lead weird long lives like the immortals of the Highlander series. They could work the red light districts when their down on their luck. Could be all kinds of possibilities. What about Merilee Markusa?

[sndwurks]

Demihumans in Tepest is still better than being demihuman under Falkovnian rule. Or, at least, that's what the ones who fled there believed. At first.

The Inquisition (which was Belenus-based, if I remember correctly?) became /very/ powerful during the Time of Unparelleled Darkness, and probably burned most of the elves and gnomes who fled to Tepest at the stake. I see dwarves and halflings escaping the flame, however, but the Inquisition hit a point where the public turned on them. Violently. Similar to how the public turned on Cromwell and his Puritans in England.

The legacy of the Belenite Inquisition lead to significant in roads for the Lawgiver and St. Ezra. Its proximity to the Shadow Rift has prevented it from being targeted for significant settling, and unfortunately for them, it's easier to either go south or west of it to trade. Tepest has a good deal in common with Sithicus and Barovia. It's geographically isolated, relatively small, and not needed to advance anyone's economic plans. However, it is not opposed to cultural advancement. It is probably most like Kartakass in that it has its own, distinct culture (and language) that most of the rest of the Core considers provincial and unimportant.

As for the Three Hags? I imagine they're doing just fine. Hell, I'd even say they are better than just fine. When the Inquisition went crazy? They benefited. When the populace revolted against it violently? They benefited. I think I will have it that Blackroot moved against them, and they took it down and destroyed it. They have one of the few remaining sources of regular magic in the world, in the form of their potion brewing, and probably are the main reason why Tepest remains independent of both Darkon and Nova Vaasa. This places them into a similar position as Harkon Lukas and Ivana Boritsi, as having survived the Time of Unparalleled Darkness, and adapted to a world where monsters are hidden.

I can imagine the Inquisition surviving after a fashion as a Tepestani cultural movement that works in open secrecy. Similar to the KKK and other hate groups, they work to destroy what they find to be "unnatural" or "foreign" influences in Tepest, under the guise of serving either the Lawgiver or St. Ezra. Civilized areas might reject their hate crimes, but in the country, it's more of a rule of fear. And they unknowingly take their orders from the Three Hags.

Re: Sithican Elves

Spot on, Manofevil. Only, technically, Sithicus doesn't have a shore line. But still.

[ewancummins]

Why can the darklords move about, anyway? What was your thinking for making that change? Just curious.

[Manofevil]

sndwurks: Actually it does. I just checked the map. Or has it moved in your version?

[sndwurks]

Why can the darklords move about, anyway? What was your thinking for making that change? Just curious.

In short? The Time of Unparalleled Darkness came when the Dark Powers simply... stepped away. Suddenly, the Darklords no longer had the curses leveled upon them by the Land, and had their freedom! Which... promptly lead to many of them just walking away or dying due to the Dark Powers not prolonging their suffering any further. After a good 50 years of that... and the world started to recover.

Re: Manofevil

According to the maps I have, Sithicus is bordered on one side by the Misty Border, and on the other three by Valachan, Verbrek, Invidia, Barovia, and Kartakass. Unless you are using a different map?

http://www.gryphonhill.com/sithicus/maps.html

Unless you are speaking of the shoreline as the Misty Border?

[sndwurks]

...

And I go through the maps and my posts, and realize that my directional dyslexia has struck again.

I have corrected my previous posts to be what they should be. Bloody dyslexia.

[ewancummins]

You could always rule that the Mists have pulled back, revealing a southern sea.

[sndwurks]

I could.

But actually like the idea of a scientist, completely rational and believing in using obervation to extrapolate and interpolate a rational universe that comes together in its corners, and doors staying sensibly shut, calmly asserting that there is simply... nothing beyond the Misty Border. That that is where the world simply ends, and going beyond it is a very risky idea, as you could, literally, wind up anywhere in the world. Or you could simply cease to exist. And any observational study of the border is inherently suspect because a mind cannot, actually, truly observe nothing.

Hence, no need for a southern ocean. The two they already have are enough.

[ewancummins]

I could.

But actually like the idea of a scientist, completely rational and believing in using obervation to extrapolate and interpolate a rational universe that comes together in its corners, and doors staying sensibly shut, calmly asserting that there is simply... nothing beyond the Misty Border. That that is where the world simply ends, and going beyond it is a very risky idea, as you could, literally, wind up anywhere in the world. Or you could simply cease to exist. And any observational study of the border is inherently suspect because a mind cannot, actually, truly observe nothing.

Hence, no need for a southern ocean. The two they already have are enough.

Sure, sounds good.
Although....don't people know that it is possible to go into the Mists and end up someplace else? Vistani do it. Mistways- do you use those? Are there tales of island countries beyond the Mists? All that would seem to contradict the idea that the Mists are simply the end of the world, and nothing exists in or beyond them.

This might all be different in your setting, of course.

EDIT- I think it would be onteresting to see an island domain in which the empiricist-materialist people believe that the Mists are the end of the universe, and nothing exists in or beyond them. When the PCs show up, things get a bit crazy! Aliens!