Zombie Golems, are they really that stupid?

[cure]

Zombie golems look anomalous . . . really.

They appear in Denizens of Dread as dread golems where they are offered as being mindless, i.e., no intelligence score. Well and good . . .

Bone golems, however, have an intelligence score of 9. And they don't even have brains to rot.

Equally, all the other dread golems offered (doll, flesh, gargoyle, glass, mechanical, snow, and wax) also have intelligence scores of 9 or so.

So is this a mistake?

[Rock of the Fraternity]

Well, bone golems are made from pieces of skeletal undead, and there are plenty of those that are disturbingly clever.

Before Van Richten's Guide to the Walking Dead, I can't seem to recall many intelligent zombie-types, apart from the Zombie Lord. Getting one of those to donate pieces for a golem would probably be... a trying experience.

In short... *shrug* I'unno.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I suppose one could argue that since skeletons don't have any brains, they are completely run by magic/negative energy, so they can be as intelligent as you want. Their brains are "virtual" anyway. Whereas zombies make do with decaying brains.... I dunno...


Worth checking the 2e source, RLMCI, I think.

[Ebonshade]

I would make the arguement that the "classic" horror zombie hungers for the flesh of the living, and that hunger overides all other considerations. The elemental force that drives the golem while somewhat intelligent, is probly overwhlemed by the hunger combined from it's parts. If you look at it's tactics, it just swings at the pcs. I imagine that if you wanted to play it right, it would probly mindlessly go through everything in it's way as well.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

A most compelling argument for spells or magic items that allow someone with at least high school intelligence to use golems as a puppeteer uses a puppet.

[HuManBing]

It seems to me that it's another artifact of the system. You want the zombie golem to be a servitor construct, so it's under the control of its creator. But how closely does the creator have to "nursemaid" it through its everyday actions? Does the creator have to keep in constant unbroken mental control just to get it to patrol an area? Identify an enemy? Attack the enemy?

If the answer to any of those questions is "no", then I'd say it's a compelling argument to give the zombie golem at least some basic level of intelligence.

The actual numbers are probably less important for gaming purposes than the descriptive effect of what it can and cannot do, anyway. PCs will probably be less interested in whether its INT is a 1, a 6, or a 9 - and they'll be much more interested in knowing whether any given human trick or ruse will fool it. ("Let's hide in that pile of corpses over there and hold our breath until it lumbers away around the corner!") Just handwave the INT score and make a list of how "cunning" you want it to be.

[Mangrum]

None of those golems should have intelligence scores.

[Strahdsbuddy]

None of those golems should have intelligence scores.

JWM, do you say that because they are supposed to be automations in the sens of your basic raised skeleton and should not be considered on the same level of golems that would fall under definition of "The Created"? If so I think I agree with you wholeheartedly. The word golem gets a little fuzzy in definition because there should be a definite line between an animated gargoyle statue and something that would appear in Children of the Night: The Created. The Flesh Golem has a unique place in our setting that separates it from something a powerful wizard animated to patrol its tower. I would say the golems in RLMC 1 fall under the latter classification.

[Matthew L. Martin]

JWM, do you say that because they are supposed to be automations in the sens of your basic raised skeleton and should not be considered on the same level of golems that would fall under definition of "The Created"?

Actually, John's probably saying that because none of the golems had Intelligence scores when originally written up in Denizens of Darkness, or in their 2E incarnations.

The rest of the golems having an Int of 9 probably arises from someone applying the dread golem template to the base creatures. What Charisma scores does DenoDread list for them?

[Strahdsbuddy]

Ahh, i overlooked the 3rd Edition portion; I know these constructs from way back in the MC binder days. All of those 2nd Edition entries say 0-intelligence and I think I like that just fine, as I pointed out above.

Does this answer your question, cure?

[cure]

To summarise then, golems of whatever sort are mindless in Ravenloft, unless were created with the dread golem template. Correct?

The errata for Denizen of Dread would go something like this: "All golems listed in Denizen of Dread should be mindless creatures, without an intelligence score. A golem created with the dread golem template (from RLPHB) is not mindless and receives an intelligence score." Correct?

[alhoon]

I would agree with J.Magrum. Golems are mindless except if they are dread golem templates. Now, someone so obsessed with a... skeleton thing in order for his obsession to breath dark life and sentience on the skeletal congromelate? Now, that's a disturbed fellow.

[Joël of the FoS]

A golem is a paintbrush is a rock. It's a tool, with simple instructions given ("Crush all who enters this room! ...Wait, not me, idiot!").

Ravenloft is blessed with the ones with cream and cherry on top.

Good find, Robert!

Joël

[Rock of the Fraternity]

So... How about doll golems? If they're meant to be guardians for children, don't they need a bit more than 0 intelligence by design?

[Ebonshade]

Yes, I would say so. Either that, or the creator has to use very carefully worded commands to keep it from attacking anyone not the child.